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Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#41

Post by tedajax »

woodruffw wrote: post #20
tedajax wrote: post #4

Smoking is bad but prohibition is worse. Being subjected to the carcercal system is worse for your health than smoking.

Being subjected to the carceral system is indeed bad for your health, but there's a gap here: you haven't explained why banning smoking means we have to put people in prison. I would have thought to just fine them, or tax purchases out of existence. No need for shackles.

How do people pay fines? If they are unable to pay what are the penalties? You also just created a black market for people who still want to smoke and that'll produce all kinds of fun.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#42

Post by gpm »

tedajax wrote: post #4

Smoking is bad but prohibition is worse. Being subjected to the carcercal system is worse for your health than smoking.

Or phrased differently, "we don't know how to stop it without causing something worse".

Outright prohibition is massively expensive (prisons, police, loss of taxes), is a gift to criminals who will grow/import it illegally and sell it, and has outsized negative consequences on the people who use it anyways.

Partial prohibition (under X years of age), taxes, and public education work to reduce the amount of it, without most of the negative side effects, so we did those. If you could point at other measures that would further reduce the usage, which didn't come with huge drawbacks, I'm pretty sure we would jump on that as well. Unfortunately, it's not clear any such measures exist.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#43

Post by 63 »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #24

I enjoy the plant. I grow it in my garden for the beautiful scented flowers, and then I dry it or buy higher quality pipe tobacco and smoke it in my pipe in the summer and fall. Or a nice cigar when I'm on vacation in a warm place. The industrial cigarette product.. yeah that's something else. Gross. But I don't see how the two can be reasonably separated from each other, though, and how you can realistically police…

You've hit upon the article's exact thesis.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#45

Post by willcipriano »

> However, there is no moderation in tobacco. There is no level at which tobacco smoke is safe for the consumer or the people around them or, as we are seeing, even those who are exposed in a tertiary environment.

I've used tobacco products perhaps from 0 - 5 times a year from adulthood on. While not "safe", pretty low risk. I have the same relationship with caffeine and alcohol. Nothing can be all that enjoyable if you do it everyday.

I've often thought of a sort of "vice license", at the age of authority you can apply for a license that you need to buy things like alcohol and tobacco. Everybody gets one that applies and is of age. Then you can voluntarily choose to limit access to a particular vice, and if you are a danger to others a court could limit your access as well.

Casinos already have this model, it's called self-exclusion[0]. It seems like the most humane solution that allows people to still be adults.

[0]https://gamban.com/blog/ban-yourself-from-online-gambling

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#46

Post by ReptileMan »

woodruffw wrote: post #27
ReptileMan wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to die of something eventually. We are not immortal.

I think many people would like to see their loved ones live longer, healthier lives and die with relative comfort. That doesn't require being denial about their mortality.

And yet the loved ones decision how to live their lives greatly outweigh what many people would like to see.

Having more pleasurable life when young while trading for a more gruesome death after 80 is not that bad of trade off.

There was a joke:

- Drinking, smoking and whoring shorten your life with 6 years. - Which six? Between 92 and 98 - take it.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#47

Post by andybak »

sponaugle wrote: post #21

And this is why we can't have nice things... because "we" don't "permit it". How does someone even write this sentence? Did they glance over at their crown, which says "King We", and think "thou shall not smoke!"?

Well. There's plenty of things that are illegal. How far down the libertarian rabbit hole are you prepared to go?

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#48

Post by paulryanrogers »

hungryforcodes wrote: post #22
throwawaygh wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is this even a question? Again, the article explains: "I can vividly recall in the first couple of weeks into my first clinical rotation watching an elderly man with end-stage emphysema literally suffocate and die on my shift wearing just a venti mask. It was a clarion moment for me as a young health care professional even though I never smoked."

Elderly man -- had possibly lived a good life. Why is this even a question. People can do what they want. In every other western country outside of the US, you might be able to argue that since Medicare is provided free by the state that it is an unfair load on the system -- but in the US -- you absolutely don't have that argument available in your pocket. Sorry. So -- to each his own.

Smoking doesn't only impact the smoker. Second hand smoke is dangerous too. That's why there is regulation on where it's permitted.

Costs to health care system also impact everyone. Though in the USA private insurers are starting to pass on some of the costs to smokers. And it could be argued that smokers often die young enough to offset health care costs of later life.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#49

Post by temp8964 »

Is "Canadian Journal of Respiratory Therapy" a legit academic journal? This paper sounds more like a rant to be posted on reddit than a scholar paper to be published on a legit journal.

The author jumped from "Tobacco smoking has no health benefits" to "tobacco has no benefit". Seriously, this shouldn't even get passed for a high school writing class.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#50

Post by ravi-delia »

willcipriano wrote: post #45

> However, there is no moderation in tobacco. There is no level at which tobacco smoke is safe for the consumer or the people around them or, as we are seeing, even those who are exposed in a tertiary environment. I've used tobacco products perhaps from 0 - 5 times a year from adulthood on. While not "safe", pretty low risk. I have the same relationship with caffeine and alcohol. Nothing can be all that enjoyable if…

You know what, that's the first good plan I've seen for handling the issue.
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