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The Entire History of Soviet Rocket Engines

everydayastronaut.com

41–49 of 49 posts

Re: The Entire History of Soviet Rocket Engines

#41
post #34
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Soviets royally sucked in the computation department To add more nuance, there is an essay [1] telling the history of early maximum flow algorithms and includes this small anecdote: [An] American asked: ".. how were you able to perform such an enormous amount of computing with your weak computers" to which the Russian responded: "we used better algorithms". There is some truth to that, besides maximum flow, sim…

While not unknown in the west in the past, "better algorithms" are in a way a dying breed in aerospace - these days a student will easily have a CFD package brute force through the problem overnight and be done. My father, upon taking over his promotor's office in Warsaw Institute of Technology, found among other things a book in Russian that described analytical, symbolic methods allowing "good enough" approximated…

CFD only looks like brute force when compared to purely analytical methods. In practice, you can't brute force a chaotic system as you quickly hit the wall. Anything complex pretty much requires you to get clever with simulation just like it did before computers with analytical approach, and/or rely on experimentation. It's especially true for rocket engine design; there's a reason why nobody made a practical RDE yet.

Re: The Entire History of Soviet Rocket Engines

#42
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While not unknown in the west in the past, "better algorithms" are in a way a dying breed in aerospace - these days a student will easily have a CFD package brute force through the problem overnight and be done. My father, upon taking over his promotor's office in Warsaw Institute of Technology, found among other things a book in Russian that described analytical, symbolic methods allowing "good enough" approximated…

CFD only looks like brute force when compared to purely analytical methods. In practice, you can't brute force a chaotic system as you quickly hit the wall. Anything complex pretty much requires you to get clever with simulation just like it did before computers with analytical approach, and/or rely on experimentation. It's especially true for rocket engine design; there's a reason why nobody made a practical RDE yet…

Past a certain minimum grid size it certainly looks like brute force to me, am I missing something?

Re: The Entire History of Soviet Rocket Engines

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CFD only looks like brute force when compared to purely analytical methods. In practice, you can't brute force a chaotic system as you quickly hit the wall. Anything complex pretty much requires you to get clever with simulation just like it did before computers with analytical approach, and/or rely on experimentation. It's especially true for rocket engine design; there's a reason why nobody made a practical RDE yet…

Past a certain minimum grid size it certainly looks like brute force to me, am I missing something?

Sometimes you can't get that grid size ;)

Re: The Entire History of Soviet Rocket Engines

#44
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While not unknown in the west in the past, "better algorithms" are in a way a dying breed in aerospace - these days a student will easily have a CFD package brute force through the problem overnight and be done. My father, upon taking over his promotor's office in Warsaw Institute of Technology, found among other things a book in Russian that described analytical, symbolic methods allowing "good enough" approximated…

CFD only looks like brute force when compared to purely analytical methods. In practice, you can't brute force a chaotic system as you quickly hit the wall. Anything complex pretty much requires you to get clever with simulation just like it did before computers with analytical approach, and/or rely on experimentation. It's especially true for rocket engine design; there's a reason why nobody made a practical RDE yet…

True, but for a large class of problems in aviation, the analytical methods can provide faster iteration before going into CFD for deep optimization, at least that's my understanding (I'm the computer science person in the family, not aerodynamic physicist :) )

Re: The Entire History of Soviet Rocket Engines

#45
post #33

https://www.gazeta.ru/science/2021/08/27_a_13919672.shtml Here is an article in Russian about the effects of sanctions on RD-180 engines (these were powering the Atlas rockets run by ULA). it mentions a few interesting details: Energomash is loosing a third of its income, they will likely have to close down production of that engine, and that they won't be able to resume production of the engine in the future. This m…

What's notable is that the Russians were not able to exploit the huge lead that they had built in rocket engine technology. The RD-170 series of engines (RD-180, RD-190, etc) were so ahead of their time. Imagine if they had focused on reusability instead of aping NASA's foolish shuttle ideas. A reusable Zenit or Energia would have been a real game-changer back in the 80s. Russian launches would have cost a fraction o…

> A reusable Zenit or Energia

There is a great episode on Energia/Buran vehicle that goes in depth and interviews the key players. It's in Russian, but the "auto-translated" subtitles are quite good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1WV5KzAUS8

Re: The Entire History of Soviet Rocket Engines

#46
post #25

The famous problem with the N1 was plumbing all of those engines to the fuel tanks without leaks. But SpaceX uses a similar design (lots of small engines) - how have they solved the plumbing problem?

Being the second to take a bite at the problem must be a part of it - I mean the example of the issues was there to learn from.

Re: The Entire History of Soviet Rocket Engines

#47
post #25

The famous problem with the N1 was plumbing all of those engines to the fuel tanks without leaks. But SpaceX uses a similar design (lots of small engines) - how have they solved the plumbing problem?

As Tim covers, none of the N1's engines that were flown were tested. That's not the case with Falcon 9, Falcon Heavy or Starship.

Re: The Entire History of Soviet Rocket Engines

#48
post #33

https://www.gazeta.ru/science/2021/08/27_a_13919672.shtml Here is an article in Russian about the effects of sanctions on RD-180 engines (these were powering the Atlas rockets run by ULA). it mentions a few interesting details: Energomash is loosing a third of its income, they will likely have to close down production of that engine, and that they won't be able to resume production of the engine in the future. This m…

What's notable is that the Russians were not able to exploit the huge lead that they had built in rocket engine technology. The RD-170 series of engines (RD-180, RD-190, etc) were so ahead of their time. Imagine if they had focused on reusability instead of aping NASA's foolish shuttle ideas. A reusable Zenit or Energia would have been a real game-changer back in the 80s. Russian launches would have cost a fraction o…

Zenit was reusable. The reusability elements were later removed because nobody demanded them.

Re: The Entire History of Soviet Rocket Engines

#49

I heard that originally the Russians wanted to fuel their rockets with pure alcohol. But they abandoned that when they discovered the fuel would too often disappear before launch...

The V2s used alcohol (from potatoes) and liquid oxygen.

Yes, but they had access to better booze.
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