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The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

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Re: The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

#41
post #30
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the incentives are still structured the same, towards despoiling the commons. Each individual/org makes more by exploiting the commons and increasing the risk than by spending more and helping clean it up. This is just like overfishing - every fisherman is motivated to catch more fish himself, rather than to leave the stock to grow, so it gets fished until the population collapses. And, they keep fishing ri…

> the incentives are still structured the same, towards despoiling the commons No, they aren't; that's just the point. When the commons becomes unusable, nobody can exploit it any more. And if that happens quickly enough, the short term benefit of exploiting it is not sufficient to outweigh the long term cost of it becoming unusable. That seems to me to be happening in the case under discussion. And once it happens,…

In sum, you seem to think that there is a difference in the commons attitude when there are no other commons; e.g., the fishing collapse happened because it wasn't their only source of food, and if it were, they would have done something different.

I'd really need to see an example where this actually happened, because your pitch in the first paragraph is utterly unconvincing.

The incentives for individual players/nations are still to use earth orbital spaces more - the more each can put up there, the more they reach their goals, and prevent competitors from reaching their goals.

Of course there is the global motivation to use it better in the long term, but this is in conflict with the individual near-term incentives - the entire point of the Tragedy Of The Commons is that everyone DOES see that it is in their interest to preserve it. Yet, before the tipping point, it is ALSO and in the short term MORE advantageous for each player to exploit it for their own advantage.

Russia just demonstrated as much last week. It is totally in their long-term interest to preserve it, and even in their immediate interest to not endanger their cosmonauts or their investment in the ISS. Yet, they went and scattered thousands of projectiles all over the space.

So, the assertion that this is somehow different needs more evidence. AFICT, everyone sees the need, yet everyone is still tossing up more satellites without a plan or agreement to fix it.

Where is the immediate (not long-term) motivation to not use it, and where is evidence that it is being fixed? It is already quite late.

Re: The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

#43
post #41
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the incentives are still structured the same, towards despoiling the commons No, they aren't; that's just the point. When the commons becomes unusable, nobody can exploit it any more. And if that happens quickly enough, the short term benefit of exploiting it is not sufficient to outweigh the long term cost of it becoming unusable. That seems to me to be happening in the case under discussion. And once it happens,…

In sum, you seem to think that there is a difference in the commons attitude when there are no other commons; e.g., the fishing collapse happened because it wasn't their only source of food, and if it were, they would have done something different. I'd really need to see an example where this actually happened, because your pitch in the first paragraph is utterly unconvincing. The incentives for individual players/na…

> you seem to think that there is a difference in the commons attitude when there are no other commons

That's one factor, yes. Another is the time horizon for gaining the benefits of using the commons. This is another respect in which the Earth orbital space scenario is very different from fisheries.

When fisheries are overfished, the benefit to the overfishers occurs over a very short time horizon. They have to either eat or sell the fish fairly quickly, before the fish spoil. So as long as they think they can go out and catch enough fish on their next trip, which typically lasts on the order of days, to compensate them for the effort and make their expected profit on top of that, they have a short term incentive to continue to overfish. In short, the time horizon for the short term incentive is on the order of days for overfishing.

A company deciding whether to launch additional satellites has a very different short term time horizon. A satellite launched now will take years to pay back the investment made in it. So the company has to be able to forecast that that satellite will remain in service, and not get impacted by extraneous factors like orbital debris, for a period of years after it is launched. Plus, the company has to invest resources in planning for years before the satellite is even launched. So if the company projects that in, say, ten years, the risk of satellites becoming impacted by orbital debris is unacceptably high, they have an incentive to do something about it because otherwise they will lose the investments they are making now in satellites that will have to deliver them profits in that time frame.

> Russia just demonstrated as much last week

What Russia did last week had nothing to do with short term incentives for private exploitation of Earth orbital space using satellites. Indeed, the main point of their demonstration appears to have been that they can deny the use of Earth orbital space to anyone with anti-satellite missiles if they so desire. If they were to carry out such a threat, it would prevent private companies from exploiting this commons.

Re: The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

#44
post #2

Isn't part of the beauty of low earth orbit the fact that it is less susceptible to this, as free flying debris in LEO tends to encounter drag and get caught by the atmosphere? Because of this I'm not sure recent and upcoming LEO satellite deployments really factor into Kessler Syndrome that much, despite how numerous they will be. So, it seems a bit disingenuous for the article to make a big deal of LEO satellites.

"a bit disingenuous" is what you get from a lot of folks here and elsewhere who are ready to just believe in mankind's ability to control the environment by technology. The list is endless but let me just make a few points:

* we do not have any kind of technology to get stuff back from orbit. Anything that is there and anything that we put into orbit will stay there, passively, until the laws of physics take care, the only exception being satellites that are made to plunge back into the atmosphere with their left over propellant. We cannot even hope to get meaningful amounts of plastics back from the surface of the oceans which is a similar problem only many, many orders of magnitude more feasible.

* When you put satellites into lower orbits you'll need more of them to obtain the same coverage of ground. At the same time, the volume of space is smaller in lower than in higher orbits, so more crowding. You can use smaller, less powerful satellites, but because of atmospheric drag, their lifetimes will presumably also more limited in low orbits, meaning considerably more additional traffic due to the increased need of de-orbiting and replenishing activities.

* Should anything go wrong (and something will go wrong sooner or later, as indicated by the fact that we already have to close keep tabs on the course of the ISS), a collision will spread parts into all directions. One would imagine that in LEO roughly half of the sky is occupied by nearby Earth, but the other half is pointing sideways or up from the Earth, so if two 100kg satellites smash into each other you still have like ~100kg of new debris that will fly into directions not prone to natural fast decay. Of course this is just a rough estimate on which I'd like to be proven wrong.

* Low orbit and increased number of objects also mean more interference with astronomy. I cannot believe when folks claim that now that we 'have AI' we can just 'use AI to clean up astronomical imagery'. Our entire ability to put stuff (and people) into space at all is predicated on many, many millennia of gazing up to the skies and trying to figure things out. No astronomy, no going to space. When you take an image and there's an object blocking the view, or worse adding a very considerable amount of reflective light that saturates your sensors, no amount of 'AI' will get back that info to you because the data is, essentially, just not there.

Re: The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

#45

It's a problem, but I don't think it's that intractable of a problem, since any company launching products into space has an incentive not to have them destroyed by a ring of planetary trash. Cool essay by the way. Learned something new.

I'm ignorant of the problem, but since it was compared to "rings of trash" (you know, like Saturn, but trashier) might it eventually solve itself? I expect the debris would pulverize itself and all sort of fall in lock-step until it was just so much dust we had to pass through? Perhaps that would take thousands of years....

If you have to travel by chemically-propelled rocket your only chance of escaping Earth's gravity well without falling back is to obtain an escape velocity of 11km/s (~40,000km/h) within a short time span before the fuels burn up. Anything that orbits Earth has a comparable speed, only directions will differ. Meaning "just so much dust" is a particulate stream that will hit you with a speed of many thousands of kilometers per hour. At that speed even the lightest insects hitting your windshield turn into non-trivial projectiles because of E=mv². It's not like idling through a cloud of dust, it's more like being subject to a very powerful sandblaster. That will wear off that pretty NASA logo pretty fast.

Re: The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

#47
post #43
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In sum, you seem to think that there is a difference in the commons attitude when there are no other commons; e.g., the fishing collapse happened because it wasn't their only source of food, and if it were, they would have done something different. I'd really need to see an example where this actually happened, because your pitch in the first paragraph is utterly unconvincing. The incentives for individual players/na…

> you seem to think that there is a difference in the commons attitude when there are no other commons That's one factor, yes. Another is the time horizon for gaining the benefits of using the commons. This is another respect in which the Earth orbital space scenario is very different from fisheries. When fisheries are overfished, the benefit to the overfishers occurs over a very short time horizon. They have to eith…

I'm reading a lot of re-plowing the same ground, and nothing conbincing.

E.g., fisherman have massive capital investments in their boats, and also will not make money unless it is long-term sustainable.

There are already the Space Debris Mitigation Guidelines," which was put together by the Inter-Agency Space Debris Coordination Committee (IADC), and unanimously adopted by the member states of the United Nations Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space (COPUOS).

Russia straight up violated them. Yes, this may prevent private companies from using space, but it would also prevent them from doing so, and as a nation-state, they have an even longer term need & incentive.

With all these incentives you outline, major steps should have already been taken by private companies restraining themselves. Can you point to any?

I'd love you to be right, but I don't see how it'll happen.

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