Without parental leave I might be dead • Hacker News Board

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#41

Post by lotsofpulp » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #21

wastedhours wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most men take only a fraction of the allowed time I truly don't understand this, and each time I see the stats on it sit in even greater disbelief. Why would anyone turn down the opportunity to spend, for an awful lot of companies, fully paid time off work to spend time with their new family? Guessing I'm much less "career-minded" than of lot of these guys, but it makes zero sense to me that you wouldn't stretch th…

Lots of folks out there who don’t want to do newborn work or spend time with their family, anecdotally. It’s a chore, not a benefit. Higher level, the value of children to parents is declining based on total fertility rate declines. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/paid-paternity... (Men who receive paid paternity leave in Spain want fewer children, study finds) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/arti…

Or children are no longer a byproduct of sex due to ease and availability of birth control options, and women gaining financial freedom, so the cost of children is finally allowed to become explicit.

As opposed to environments without prophylaxis options and where women do not have financial independence, where it was implicitly borne by women.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#42

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #32

speedgoose wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saying "other countries do it" isn't really an answer. There's no clear solutions Your argument makes me think about this satiric article : https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-na... I live in a country where it's exactly what we do, and it's fine. I took a 7 months paid parental leave as a dad recently and my company congratulated me for the birth.

Again, saying "other countries do it" isn't really an answer. That's like saying why are incomes in Mexico so much lower than the US? Just do what the US does. In fact, Mexico has 12 weeks. And Greece has 40. I'd rather be a parent in the US than Greece or Mexico. Policies don't exist in a vacuum.

[deleted]

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#43

Post by Spooky23 » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

Easy. It’s not all about them.

The long term interests of society, the employee and ultimately of the business is something that many business struggle to realize or care about.

So we have the government, whose power reigns supreme, who can compel the business to act. Sometimes this is necessary, because business managers aren’t always good at what they do.

My favorite example was something my local conservative radio media went insane over about 15 years ago. The state passed a law that requires employers to, in writing: (a) tell the employee what their job title is, (b) tell the employee what their rate of pay is, (c) tell them what their available benefits are, and what they cost, and (d) tell them what expenses the employee will have and what they cost. (ie, uniforms, tools) Dire predictions of doom were made, small businesses were going to be destroyed, yadda yadda.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#44

Post by ilikehurdles » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

nix23 wrote: post #15

>But if you are a person in America who has given birth or knows someone who has given birth, this is just a summary of a sobering and absolutely barbaric reality. It's just the US, not america, one writing for nytimes should know the difference https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/brazil/healthcare/pregnancy... >>Brazil...In 2008, maternity leave was extended from 120 to 180 days https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worl…

Consider looking up the definition of “America”.

The first one in dictionaries I just checked (Oxford and Cambridge) references the country, The United States.

I’m well aware of what the Americas are, but I’ve never once heard a speaker of American English use the singular form of the noun to refer to the collection of continents.

edit: Since your reply has been rightfully flagged, read the first line of the definition you pasted. You really didn’t need to share a link to show me exactly what I told you.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#45

Post by letmeinhere » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #18

The problem with parental leave is the same problem with universal health care or any entitlement that isn’t utilized by the entire population at the same rate constantly. Things like roads (and even then there are many locales with crappy roads) are easy to justify. Things like parental leave and universal health care are hard because the percentage of those utilizing will be low and the disproportionate benefit wil…

That's...not what a Ponzi scheme is. Also, lol at entire population using roads at exactly the same rate, I've been subsidizing rural and exurban lifestyles my whole urban lifetime.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#46

Post by genghisjahn » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

wastedhours wrote: post #11

bko wrote: post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

> most men take only a fraction of the allowed time I truly don't understand this, and each time I see the stats on it sit in even greater disbelief. Why would anyone turn down the opportunity to spend, for an awful lot of companies, fully paid time off work to spend time with their new family? Guessing I'm much less "career-minded" than of lot of these guys, but it makes zero sense to me that you wouldn't stretch th…

I took all twelve weeks at my company spread out of the course of a year. 90% great, 10% work hassle. I manage 3 teams and it was hard to get some larger initiatives moving with me being out so much. But we aren’t good at leave like this is the US. Corp policies aside we as employees just aren’t good at it. But it’s the right way to go. And I wanted to encourage people on team to take the leave that was available.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#47

Post by dagw » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

nix23 wrote: post #15

>But if you are a person in America who has given birth or knows someone who has given birth, this is just a summary of a sobering and absolutely barbaric reality. It's just the US, not america, one writing for nytimes should know the difference https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/brazil/healthcare/pregnancy... >>Brazil...In 2008, maternity leave was extended from 120 to 180 days https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worl…

Honest question, is there anywhere in the English speaking world that actually uses "America" rather than "The Americas" or "The American continent" to collectively refer to the continents of North and South America?

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#48

Post by endisneigh » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

onionisafruit wrote: post #30

endisneigh wrote: post #18

The problem with parental leave is the same problem with universal health care or any entitlement that isn’t utilized by the entire population at the same rate constantly. Things like roads (and even then there are many locales with crappy roads) are easy to justify. Things like parental leave and universal health care are hard because the percentage of those utilizing will be low and the disproportionate benefit wil…

I don’t think I will agree with you, but I’m curious to see how paid parental leave is like a Ponzi scheme.

The addition of more people to tax is necessary in order to fund the precious generation.

Most insurance/probabilistic entitlements have the same property. It’s the only way the math can work.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#49

Post by endisneigh » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

letmeinhere wrote: post #45

endisneigh wrote: post #18

The problem with parental leave is the same problem with universal health care or any entitlement that isn’t utilized by the entire population at the same rate constantly. Things like roads (and even then there are many locales with crappy roads) are easy to justify. Things like parental leave and universal health care are hard because the percentage of those utilizing will be low and the disproportionate benefit wil…

That's...not what a Ponzi scheme is. Also, lol at entire population using roads at exactly the same rate, I've been subsidizing rural and exurban lifestyles my whole urban lifetime.

How is it not a Ponzi scheme? You need more people to fund the previous beneficiaries.

You think the math works if the population never increases? Consider how you’d fund it if the population decreased and immigration did not exist.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#50

Post by vidarh » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

Where it works best in other countries it very much tends to be covered via taxation, combined with increasing pressure for providing benefits to fathers as well which are lost if not taken, coupled with strong legal protections against firing.

But even then you're right that it's a struggle to get men to take the full available parental leave, often because "just" getting paid 100% of salary isn't enough. Losing X months of career progression is often seen as a bigger deal (and a not unsubstantial part of remaining pay discrepancies between men and women in some countries).

That doesn't mean you can't get significant improvements, though.

I live in the UK, and waking up to the harsh realities of how shitty parental leave provisions and nursery provisions are here compared to Norway where I grew up was not fun...

(And yes, some people will try to discriminate, and some will succeed. )