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Why Are Finland's Schools Successful?

smithsonianmag.com

41–50 of 93 posts

Re: Why Are Finland's Schools Successful?

#41
post #21
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may spend less per child on education, but they probably spend more on social services. Read the paragraph in the article that starts with "it's almost unheard of for a child to show up hungry or homeless." Many American students face huge barriers to learning that originate outside of school. They are hungry, chronically ill, don't have a home, don't have a quiet space to study, don't have supportive parents, e…

There's some truth to that. However, most of the USA is not like season four of The Wire, and still manages to have public schools that are mediocre at best. If it's valid to use fictional schools from TV shows as examples, my experience is that schools in small to medium sized cities in the USA are shockingly similar to the one on South Park.

The main writer of that series was an ex-inner-city schoolteacher and based those stories on his own experience.

"Burns has said that he stumbled into teaching with little preparation because of the intense demand for teachers in inner-city schools.[2] Burns taught seventh grade. Psychologically, he compared the experience of teaching to the Vietnam War.[2] He found the experience profoundly challenging because of the emotional damage that the vast majority of his students had already experienced before reaching the classroom. He saw his primary role as instilling caring behavior in his pupils.[2] He felt his major impact was in giving the children an example of an "adult who's consistent, who's always there, who always comes through with what he said, then that's a new world for them."[2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Burns

Re: Why Are Finland's Schools Successful?

#42
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may spend less per child on education, but they probably spend more on social services. Read the paragraph in the article that starts with "it's almost unheard of for a child to show up hungry or homeless." Many American students face huge barriers to learning that originate outside of school. They are hungry, chronically ill, don't have a home, don't have a quiet space to study, don't have supportive parents, e…

Some amount of American school spending also goes towards addressing those problems, not really towards education, which can distort what the "education spending" figures mean. For example, depending on which figures for education spending you use, it might include the free school lunch program, which is really more a kind of anti-poverty program that happens to be distributed via the schools. In addition, beefed up…

Finland has free school lunches for everyone, and I guess counseling as well, but the other issues you mention aren't handled by schools as far as I know.

Re: Why Are Finland's Schools Successful?

#43
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the key takeaway for me from the article (and also supports my own beliefs). If teachers in the US started earning like doctors and lawyers ($100K-$200K), then many of our education problems would go away. Why? You'd start retaining good teachers, and attracting new, good teachers. Then these folks would continue to solve education problems. You'd be amazed at what highly paid, motivated professionals can acc…

$100k-200k would probably bankrupt just about every US school system. Why do you think bad teachers would work their way out of the system due to competition? Ontario pays teachers generously and as a result has a glut of teachers (widespread unemployment amongst new teachers, people going abroad, certainly many of these people would be good teachers). There's no "competition" because the challenge is to get on the s…

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Re: Why Are Finland's Schools Successful?

#44
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$100k-200k would probably bankrupt just about every US school system. Why do you think bad teachers would work their way out of the system due to competition? Ontario pays teachers generously and as a result has a glut of teachers (widespread unemployment amongst new teachers, people going abroad, certainly many of these people would be good teachers). There's no "competition" because the challenge is to get on the s…

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There are very few principals and administrators compared to teachers.

Re: Why Are Finland's Schools Successful?

#45
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$100k-200k would probably bankrupt just about every US school system. Why do you think bad teachers would work their way out of the system due to competition? Ontario pays teachers generously and as a result has a glut of teachers (widespread unemployment amongst new teachers, people going abroad, certainly many of these people would be good teachers). There's no "competition" because the challenge is to get on the s…

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Why Are Finland's Schools Successful?

#46
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American schools not only "don't try very hard to engage in best practice," that sort of thing is often explicitly forbidden. My cousins are teachers in Americorps and preparing their own lesson plans or using outside materials are not allowed under their employment contracts.

How old are your cousins? Americorps seems to recruit (only recruits?) twenty-something, recent college grads. The people I know who've gone to work for them were certainly in that age group. Other teachers I know (15+ years of teaching) seem to have a fair amount of freedom in their lesson plans and materials so I wonder if this is an issue with Americorps, younger teachers, or perhaps I've just known some fortunate…

Confirming this. The experience of a Americorps recruit is barely comparable to the average experience of a professional teacher. Americorps recruits are sent to the worse schools, partly because those schools cannot afford more professional teachers.

Re: Why Are Finland's Schools Successful?

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just happen to have watched the documentary mentioned in the article (Waiting For Superman) a couple of nights ago. It found that children from the middle class are just as effected. The issue boils down to the pervasiveness of bad teachers in the system, and an inability to get rid of those teachers and reward/promote good teachers.

I'm quite sure that it's not because it's easier to get rid off of bad teachers in Finland. My mother is an elementary school teacher here in Finland, and if I recall correctly, I've never heard that somebody was sacked because of bad teaching. Sometimes teachers take long sick-leaves due to psychological stress, when they have problems with their class, but that's an another topic of it's own. Maybe it's more contro…

Finland, according to the article, hires the top 10% of graduates, who also require master's degree in education. So they're starting off with a highly skilled base of top candidates. On this side of the pond, there are decades of poor teachers ensconced in the system.

"You can't have good schools without good teachers"

Re: Why Are Finland's Schools Successful?

#48
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's some truth to that. However, most of the USA is not like season four of The Wire, and still manages to have public schools that are mediocre at best. If it's valid to use fictional schools from TV shows as examples, my experience is that schools in small to medium sized cities in the USA are shockingly similar to the one on South Park.

The main writer of that series was an ex-inner-city schoolteacher and based those stories on his own experience. "Burns has said that he stumbled into teaching with little preparation because of the intense demand for teachers in inner-city schools.[2] Burns taught seventh grade. Psychologically, he compared the experience of teaching to the Vietnam War.[2] He found the experience profoundly challenging because of th…

As a former student in a small town elementary school, I have little doubt Matt Stone and Trey Parker based the South Park school on their own experience growing up in Colorado. Mr. Hand is a bit much - but just a bit. Putting up with bizarre characters, listening to inappropriate personal life details, tolerating dumb lessons and watching videos in class were all standard occurrences.

Re: Why Are Finland's Schools Successful?

#49

I can't wait for Finns to pop in here to tell us about the dark sides of this success. There must be some. For one, there's a tax rate that would make most Americans, and even most Europeans, choke on their latte. I'm not sure that's bad, but this article seems to neglect to mention that nothing comes for free. This isn't just "doing it smarter", it's also investing a massive chunk of money. Additionally, I honestly…

a Finn popping up here.

I study at Aalto university, my mom is a teacher and I have thought this stuff a lot.

Dark side of success... What success? Given six million people, who all are smart as hell when 15 year olds, you could assume that there would be at least one university in Finland that would be in the group of 30 best universities in the world. Well, our best is Tampereen teknillinen yliopisto at rank 151. Switzerland has Universite de geneve at 33 while Sweden has Karolinska Institut at 51 http://www.4icu.org/top200/

I have heard that Finland has quite cheap engineers when compared internationally, but you can hardly speak of very high class upper education.

Teaching in Finland is far from perfect. I think these scores have a lot to do with language. As Finnish is written phonetically, average child knows how to read and write after first grade. It would be more fair to compare Finnish 13 year old with English speaking 15 year old.

Re: Why Are Finland's Schools Successful?

#50
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finland's schools were terrible forty years ago.

Just wondering, has the wealth distribution changed in that time?

Wealth distribution did become more even from 60s to mid 80s, but after that the trend has reversed.
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