I honestly don't understand the obsession some people have with the gold standard. Even when the US had the gold standard, the US never had gold reserves that matched the dollars in circulation. Not once. Ever. Also, the gold standard doesn't stop sovereign devaluation as happened by FDR in the 30s. Historically gold existed as a currency because it had some useful properties: 1. Unusual appearance; 2. Relatively sca…
you forgot verifiable. you don't need advanced technology (not much more than a black rock) to get a good estimate of the purity of gold which can be used as a neutral negotiating point in an exchange. Due to its relativistic quantum mechanical properties, gold lowers the activation barrier of creating trust between two parties.
The Gold Standard and the Great Depression (1997)
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Re: The Gold Standard and the Great Depression (1997)
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
100% Agree. From everything I've read, our being able to print money is an indispensable tool during financial crises. Fixing the great depression and the great recession depended on this ability. If the world transitions to cryptocurrencies whose supply is unmanaged or fixed, that will not be possible and presumably will be stuck during financial crises.
All printing money does is transfer wealth from savers (people long the currency) to debtors (people short the currency) without their consent. Large financial crises occur because this keeps happening. Bitcoin is a way out, as savers learn it's foolish to be long fiat currency.
Re: The Gold Standard and the Great Depression (1997)
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
you forgot verifiable. you don't need advanced technology (not much more than a black rock) to get a good estimate of the purity of gold which can be used as a neutral negotiating point in an exchange. Due to its relativistic quantum mechanical properties, gold lowers the activation barrier of creating trust between two parties.
Isn’t this just the density point restated?
Re: The Gold Standard and the Great Depression (1997)
#44Here I outline Asset Bubbles, Fractional Reserve Banking, and the Money Supply 101:
In the 1920s, the US blew a stock market bubble. Lots of people bought stocks on margin, that is, with loans from commercial banks and using the stock as collateral. The banks got the money not from "the Gold Standard" with so much attention in the OP but from fractional reserve banking, that is, loaning out deposits of savers, demand deposits. Due to the crash of the stock market, suddenly at the end of Black Tuesday, 10/29/1929, lots of the loans could not be paid back. The borrowers were broke. Then the banks were broke. Then savers were broke. Much of the money supply had been from the loans from the fractional reserve banking, and with the stock market crash that money had in effect been destroyed. So, we suddenly had a huge reduction in the money supply.
The people who suddenly were broke weren't spending much money, and, thus, their vendors had reduced revenue and fired their workers who then weren't spending much money, and we were in the Great Depression.
The source of the bubble was fractional reserve banking, not really, directly the Gold Standard: With or without a Gold Standard, we can still use fractional reserve banking to blow asset bubbles that can pop and destroy much of the money supply -- we came close for the same song, second verse with the mortgage bond crash in 2008.
So, after 10/29/1929 the US was buying less and, thus, England, Germany, etc. were selling less and also went into a Great Depression. Then also the US was not selling as much to England, Germany, etc. and went into a deeper Great Depression.
On 12/7/1941, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and, thus, got the US into WWII. As a result, using borrowed money, War Bonds, the US started massive war production so that everyone who was willing and able to work had 1-3 jobs. Then 90 days later, say, 3/7/1942, over 12 years since the stock market crash of Black Tuesday, 10/29/1929, we were out of the Great Depression. Slam, bam, thank you, Ma'am, in 90 days we were out of what we had been in for 12+ years since 10/29/1929.
Yes, we can suspect that with some real understanding of the economy we COULD have been out of the Great Depression in 90 days after, Black Tuesday, 10/29/1929, that is, on about 1/29/1930. The 12+ years in the Great Depression caused lots of serious harm just here in the US, some of which is still with us. For the world, one could argue that the Great Depression was the main cause of WWII that killed 50 million, maybe 100 million, people. Fumbling with the real causes of the Great Depression seems, say, unfortunate.
The War Bonds in effect increased the money supply, and at the end of the war we stayed out of the Great Depression.
Yes, we can control fractional reserve banking via reserve ratios, stress tests, etc.
Lesson: Yes, sound money is important. What to do with gold as money is also important. But the key failure that caused the Great Depression was the pop of an asset bubble puffed up with borrowed money from irresponsible cases of fractional reserve banking while this and that about gold was essentially irrelevant. Simple, 101 level stuff.
Re: The Gold Standard and the Great Depression (1997)
#45I honestly don't understand the obsession some people have with the gold standard. Even when the US had the gold standard, the US never had gold reserves that matched the dollars in circulation. Not once. Ever. Also, the gold standard doesn't stop sovereign devaluation as happened by FDR in the 30s. Historically gold existed as a currency because it had some useful properties: 1. Unusual appearance; 2. Relatively sca…
German hyperinflation was useful for getting rid of internal debts that the government of Germany had borrowed from it's citizens during the war. It also led to collapse of pensions
Re: The Gold Standard and the Great Depression (1997)
#46I honestly don't understand the obsession some people have with the gold standard. Even when the US had the gold standard, the US never had gold reserves that matched the dollars in circulation. Not once. Ever. Also, the gold standard doesn't stop sovereign devaluation as happened by FDR in the 30s. Historically gold existed as a currency because it had some useful properties: 1. Unusual appearance; 2. Relatively sca…
This cuts both ways. Proponents of "sound money" and the gold standard ignore this unwinding of the relationship. So pointing to the roaring 20s or the economic booms of the late 19th century as evidence of the power of sound money really say nothing of the sort.
Proponents of the "gold standard caused the Great Depression" also ignore that this relationship was tenuous at best. This article is typical of that mindset -- it wasn't the gold standard per se, but it was gold-standard-era-thinking that caused the Great Depression.
The only people who are offering a coherent story here are the MMTers who really take a look at the role of the state (and, probably more importantly, the law) in the story of money. While I disagree with many of the policy proposals from MMT proponents, I think that view is descriptively accurate for the most part. Where I think they fall short (and I am working hard to challenge my own views here) is in their picture of inflation, which I feel is very incomplete.
Re: The Gold Standard and the Great Depression (1997)
#47I honestly don't understand the obsession some people have with the gold standard. Even when the US had the gold standard, the US never had gold reserves that matched the dollars in circulation. Not once. Ever. Also, the gold standard doesn't stop sovereign devaluation as happened by FDR in the 30s. Historically gold existed as a currency because it had some useful properties: 1. Unusual appearance; 2. Relatively sca…
This is not true. Reparations had to be paid in Goldmarks, foreign currencies, and commodities. But inflation was used to meet the state's other expenses, including paper mark-denominated war bonds.
Re: The Gold Standard and the Great Depression (1997)
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
If there's a great depression and few people are noticing, then it isn't that great. The great ones aren't subtle. I live in the rural southwest. Business isn't booming here. But it isn't that bad either, yet. Maybe we're in the "so far so good" phase, but there's a big difference between the fall and arriving at the pavement.
Great is an interesting term. Would it not be a Great Depression if it impacts millions of Americans for years or decades if the academic elite don’t see it from their ivory towers to document it?
The great depression effected a much larger percentage of the population in a much more negative manner
You seem to be talking about local economic difficulties in some regions of the country. Which isn't a great thing but not nearly as terrible as the great depression.
Re: The Gold Standard and the Great Depression (1997)
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
Any asset that isn't the currency is "a way out" When people specify Bitcoin or Gold as a particularly good "hedge for inflation" they betray the fact that they failed Macroeconomics 101. Everything that isn't the currency is a "hedge for inflation".
Some things are better hedges than others. Bitcoin happens to have been the best over the past decade. Edit: I'd argue this is because it has better monetary properties than the alternatives.
Re: The Gold Standard and the Great Depression (1997)
#50The article begins with the idea that the causes of the Great Depression are not known or too numerous to pin down. It then continues by claiming that "recent scholarship has resulted in striking agreement on the reason for the crisis." The cause of the Great Depression was the gold standard, according to the article: > ... The constraints of the gold-standard system hamstrung countries as they struggled to adapt dur…
The gold standard was abandoned because it is a terrible idea for civilizations that have technologies like accounting systems and currencies that are difficult to counterfeit. Tying economic expansion to the ability to mine and store one type of element doesn't make any sense. There are countless asteroids out there with quadrillions of dollars of precious metals. Does that mean the first private company to create a…
How's that gap between the rich and the poor going?
Look, the US was on the gold standard between 1850 and early 1900s, and not only recovered from a civil war, but ALSO freed all of its slaves AND went from a backwater country to a world superpower, and reduced inequality all at the same time.
https://voxeu.org/article/american-growth-and-inequality-170...