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Reddit alternative Ruqqus shutting down

ruqqus.com

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Re: Reddit alternative Ruqqus shutting down

#41

Post by webmaven »

brodouevencode wrote: post #13
SkyPuncher wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing how many "founders" think "having a better product" will win out against network effects.

In my admittedly naive way I always hope that they will win out by having the better product. But to your point, I think the network effects are much, much, much stronger than anyone (including Theil, from which I first heard this concept) had ever anticipated. So maybe the question is how does one beat the network effects that are so prevalent?

> But to your point, I think the network effects are much, much, much stronger than anyone (including Theil, from which I first heard this concept) had ever anticipated.

> So maybe the question is how does one beat the network effects that are so prevalent?

You can't. And in fact, these doomed-to-be-shut-down sites are in fact exhibiting an extremely strong network effect. The founding group of malcontents has an existing network of relationships with both strong and weak ties, and the whole lot of them get pulled in en-mass.

That's what you have to overcome in these cases, not the network effect that the mainstream sites exhibit. FB, Reddit, and Twitter don't necessarily have to be beaten in order for a smaller site to succeed on it's own terms.

There are tactics that would make it likelier for such a site to endure, but the site would have to commit at the outset to a whole hearted strategy of weapons-grade muffling of the toxic sludge. Pretty much implement every undeployed UI trick and algorithmic tweak that can be found in the recent FB leaks. Implement shadowbans. Use rate limiting. Suppress the display of posts that have a higher ratio of angry emoji reactions. Brigade detection. Virality and repost limits.

Anyway, if you're willing and prepared to dial the soft-moderation and filter-bubbles up to 11, you MIGHT be able to run a free-speech-centric site that is capable of withstanding an influx of Nazis and Trolls without degenerating into a festering cesspool that repels anyone else. But you're going to have to have a crew with pretty strong stomachs looking at all the sludge just in order to continually maintain and adjust the knobs on those measures.

None of that will be cheap or easy, and in the end you'll have accomplished a rather dubious feat: a site that allows conspiracy theories and racist Nazi rants to be posted while limiting their spread as much as possible. So you can 'friend' your crazy uncle frank and comment on his fishing photos without having to deal with his anti-masking posts or Alex Jones fan-fiction.

Of course the folks you're muffling will complain loudly, but realistically speaking that won't prevent them from using the site.

I'm not sure you can build a viable business model around that value proposition, but from a technical and social standpoint it might work.

Re: Reddit alternative Ruqqus shutting down

#42

Post by winternett »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #3

I got a slight chuckle out of this because it reminded me of one of my favorite quotes from Slate Star Codex (in this case the blog post was talking about Voat): > The moral of the story is: if you’re against witch-hunts, and you promise to found your own little utopian community where witch-hunts will never happen, your new society will end up consisting of approximately three principled civil libertarians and seven…

Well if you ask me, Reddit is now mostly a small community of chosen people posting lead content, whilst everyone else watches and works for free in hope of earning a few imaginary points and reaching the now unobtainable (without paying in some form or fashion for it) front page anyway...

It's real easy to fake a user community with proper automation and a hand full admins nowadays in order to run a "revenue machine" social media community.

-Just a personal opinion, not fact (nor stated as such) though.

Re: Reddit alternative Ruqqus shutting down

#43

Post by hunterb123 »

micromacrofoot wrote: post #30
hunterb123 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought you were quoting because you agreed with it, you didn't explain why. It's an offensive statement, no matter who said it, it's a sweeping generalization. There are plenty of intelligent conservatives, and either way, they want a community.

Sure but these aren't communities of conservatives, these are communities of bigots... they're not debating fiscal responsibility, they're self-proclaimed nazis They're not getting kicked off of twitter and facebook for being conservative, they're getting kicked off for being extremely racist

There are many who got kicked off Twitter/FB for purely political statements like sharing the Wuhan lab leak theory or Hunter Biden's laptop at the wrong time. Or maybe just a #LetsGoBrandon.

Just like there are many bad and good liberals on Twitter, there can be many bad and good conservatives on other platforms. That doesn't mean there isn't unjust censorship as well. Crying racism or misinformation won't cover it up for long.

Re: Reddit alternative Ruqqus shutting down

#44

Post by winternett »

brodouevencode wrote: post #13
SkyPuncher wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing how many "founders" think "having a better product" will win out against network effects.

In my admittedly naive way I always hope that they will win out by having the better product. But to your point, I think the network effects are much, much, much stronger than anyone (including Theil, from which I first heard this concept) had ever anticipated. So maybe the question is how does one beat the network effects that are so prevalent?

>So maybe the question is how does one beat the network effects that are so prevalent?

The answer is and has always been to emphasize user equality and to hold each user individually responsible for their actions.

Reddit screwed up all it's integrity when it stopped showing downvote stats in addition to upvote counts.. They needed brigading and skewed voting to allow sponsored posts, celebrity and popularity, and promoted ideals to be artificially promoted as favorable by a majority.

Faked/limited stats, limited controls, and misleading numbers are trademark characteristics of an artificially skewed or profit-biased platform these days.

Re: Reddit alternative Ruqqus shutting down

#45

Post by webmaven »

micromacrofoot wrote: post #30
hunterb123 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought you were quoting because you agreed with it, you didn't explain why. It's an offensive statement, no matter who said it, it's a sweeping generalization. There are plenty of intelligent conservatives, and either way, they want a community.

Sure but these aren't communities of conservatives, these are communities of bigots... they're not debating fiscal responsibility, they're self-proclaimed nazis They're not getting kicked off of twitter and facebook for being conservative, they're getting kicked off for being extremely racist

> Sure but these aren't communities of conservatives, these are communities of bigots... they're not debating fiscal responsibility, they're self-proclaimed nazis

> They're not getting kicked off of twitter and facebook for being conservative, they're getting kicked off for being extremely racist

It is worth noting that a lot of the people in this demographic self-identity as Conservatives, even though there is nothing particularly conservative about their opinions and agenda. At best, they're reactionaries, and rather radical ones at that.

But the GOP does like their Big Tent strategy, and will continue to make such folks welcome (or at least their votes) as long as it continues to work.

Re: Reddit alternative Ruqqus shutting down

#46

Post by webmaven »

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #16
Computeiful wrote: post #2

These free-speech reddit clones always seem to descend to far-right Nazism. Maybe you have to ban all political discussion to survive as a reddit clone on the modern internet.

There are many left and far-left forums out there too, though yeah they aren't billed as "free speech" clones. Lemmy [1] is an explicitly leftist friendly type of forum and Tildes [2] while not explicitly leftist is in practice very leftist. There are as many communities out there as there are strands to human thought I imagine. [1]: https://lemmy.ml/ [2]: https://tildes.net/

> There are many left and far-left forums out there too, though yeah they aren't billed as "free speech" clones.

I'm reasonably sure that in far left forums, though you can (for example) find quite a bit of antisemitism and similar toxic opinions, you won't get a lot of "Stalin was Right" memes, or admiration for the Khmer Rouge.

There is a qualitative and quantitative difference between the extremes of the right and left in US political discourse as well as the amount of cover the mainstream is willing to extend.

Re: Reddit alternative Ruqqus shutting down

#47

Post by hunterb123 »

exogeny wrote: post #39
hunterb123 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then argue it. Why?

I don't believe for a second that you're arguing in good faith, given the parade of goalpost-moving with attendant downvotes you rained into the other post on this topic. But he understood it, literally, because he ran a community that embodied it. To my knowledge, neither me nor you can say that, so again, literally speaking he has a lot more experience in understanding the dynamics of this culture. You feel like he…

First, I just wanted you to expand, I am arguing in good faith. Now I'm interested what you mean by "parade of goalpost-moving" though. My comments in this thread are positive and I don't think I said anything controversial other than defending a sweeping generalization.

Second, he doesn't say anything of substance to backup that specific statement. Would you like to point it out?

We are not communicating with him, his statement from the article was quoted at me and I responded to what I thought of it.

Re: Reddit alternative Ruqqus shutting down

#48

Post by tomjen3 »

mahogany wrote: post #34
jorgesborges wrote: post #22

I'm not familiar with these alternatives, or if it's true they descend into abhorrent extremism. But the problem with mainstream social media platforms prohibiting content is that it fuels the extremism it's trying to combat. I understand it's their right as private companies yada yada yada. But there's an increasingly narrow space within which to have meaningful conversations. And things are getting bad. Moderates f…

> But the problem with mainstream social media platforms prohibiting content is that it fuels the extremism it's trying to combat. I've held this belief before but now I'm not so sure. Is this actually quantifiable? For example, I'd be interested to know if there are people or groups that have grown in size/reach after (and more specifically, because of ) being banned from major platforms. In fact, you just said that…

When the donald was on reddit there was some limits on what they could do. When they got banned they moved to their own domain and there was no limit whatever.

Re: Reddit alternative Ruqqus shutting down

#49

Post by consumer451 »

tomjen3 wrote: post #48
mahogany wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the problem with mainstream social media platforms prohibiting content is that it fuels the extremism it's trying to combat. I've held this belief before but now I'm not so sure. Is this actually quantifiable? For example, I'd be interested to know if there are people or groups that have grown in size/reach after (and more specifically, because of ) being banned from major platforms. In fact, you just said that…

When the donald was on reddit there was some limits on what they could do. When they got banned they moved to their own domain and there was no limit whatever.

> there was no limit whatever.

There were certainly limits on speech that did not fall in line with t_d's world view. As there are in all conservative venues aside from r/tuesday AFAIK.

If anyone is aware of somewhere that is conservative, and is interested in honest debate, I am interested.

Re: Reddit alternative Ruqqus shutting down

#50

Post by Karrot_Kream »

webmaven wrote: post #46
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many left and far-left forums out there too, though yeah they aren't billed as "free speech" clones. Lemmy [1] is an explicitly leftist friendly type of forum and Tildes [2] while not explicitly leftist is in practice very leftist. There are as many communities out there as there are strands to human thought I imagine. [1]: https://lemmy.ml/ [2]: https://tildes.net/

> There are many left and far-left forums out there too, though yeah they aren't billed as "free speech" clones. I'm reasonably sure that in far left forums, though you can (for example) find quite a bit of antisemitism and similar toxic opinions, you won't get a lot of "Stalin was Right" memes, or admiration for the Khmer Rouge. There is a qualitative and quantitative difference between the extremes of the right and…

> you won't get a lot of "Stalin was Right" memes, or admiration for the Khmer Rouge.

You definitely do. Take a look at this Tankie community on Lemmygrad [1]. You'll also find a lot of denial about Uigyuhr genocide on behalf of China and a lot of revisionism about the atrocities of both the Soviet Union's military interventions and its pogroms.

[1]: https://lemmygrad.ml/c/fullcommunism

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