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Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

businessinsider.com

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Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#41

Post by sam0x17 »

ghaff wrote: post #30
sam0x17 wrote: post #24

It isn't just Lambda School. I mentor for [insert large coding bootcamp here] and I will say things have been going badly across the board for more than 50% of students. They recently had to cut a lot of staff, and completion rates seem to hover around only 50-60% when you take into account all the students they remove from this calculation when they withdraw for "personal reasons". The employment numbers I don't hav…

One nice thing about software is that you can self-teach to a significant degree. But you probably need some basic aptitude and you need a huge amount of self-motivation. And, as you say, you probably want to structure your learning in a way that works for you.

I will say, the formalism mainly helps to fight off imposter syndrome. I was the same programmer I was before and after my CS degree, the difference being with the degree I had a chip on my shoulder, and that helped significantly.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#42

Post by bocklund »

dnautics wrote: post #28
whoisjuan wrote: post #19

In their eagerness to disrupt traditional education, all these programs forgot that the one single thing that makes traditional university education succesful is teaching people with aptitude and drive. To get accepted and graduate from a reputable university you have to get good results in standardized tests and work your self through multiple courses for at least 3 years. That by itself doesn't mean anything but th…

> one single thing that makes traditional university education succesful is aptitude and drive. Networking, connections, and (external) credentialism?

Networking and connections get university students good jobs. Aptitude and drive are what makes them good at those jobs.

I think the post you responded to was talking about the latter type of “success” at universities, but both are valid metrics of success.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#43

Post by tayo42 »

ghaff wrote: post #30
sam0x17 wrote: post #24

It isn't just Lambda School. I mentor for [insert large coding bootcamp here] and I will say things have been going badly across the board for more than 50% of students. They recently had to cut a lot of staff, and completion rates seem to hover around only 50-60% when you take into account all the students they remove from this calculation when they withdraw for "personal reasons". The employment numbers I don't hav…

One nice thing about software is that you can self-teach to a significant degree. But you probably need some basic aptitude and you need a huge amount of self-motivation. And, as you say, you probably want to structure your learning in a way that works for you.

> But you probably need some basic aptitude and you need a huge amount of self-motivation.

You need this to be successful at anything. My cynical take is most people aren't, and see programing as some get rich quick scheme. If they did have these qualities they for the most part would already be successful

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#44

Post by torben-friis »

sam0x17 wrote: post #35
sam0x17 wrote: post #24

It isn't just Lambda School. I mentor for [insert large coding bootcamp here] and I will say things have been going badly across the board for more than 50% of students. They recently had to cut a lot of staff, and completion rates seem to hover around only 50-60% when you take into account all the students they remove from this calculation when they withdraw for "personal reasons". The employment numbers I don't hav…

One huge mistake I think a lot (but not all of) the bootcamps are making is taking the easy route of simply using JavaScript to teach both frontend and backend. JavaScript is a TERRIBLE first programming language. I usually have to spend 2-3 sessions per mentee explaining the idiosyncrasies of JavaScript, where some of the OOP concepts actually come from, and how things work in other languages to put into context the…

Why not teach them functional concepts (map, filter, reduce, etc are well supported and comfortable) and leave the horrors of Js classes alone?

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#45

Post by lordnacho »

The problem with any education is how do you figure out the actual value added?

We all know that kid who would learn stuff regardless of what environment he was put in, and his opposite. And then probably a fair few in the middle where the environment actually matters.

When you're looking at outcomes, how do you know which school is worth paying for? I'm facing this issue myself right now for my primary school kids.

The big issue statistically is selection. For an analogy, think of cars. Are Volvos safe, or do they just attract safer drivers? It's not impossible to tease out from stats in principle, but has anyone done it? With schools it's even worse. Is one school in a richer area? What about the cost, that will skew selection too? Does one school use an entrance exam? And the really big one, does a school kick out underperformers?

With respect to coding schools you have to wonder whether the "best" students are already creamed off by universities, such that Lambda School and their like are really just salvaging a few people who fell into unfortunate circumstances and are trying to help themselves out. Along with some unfortunates who are never going to be coders but buy the premise that you can be taught these things in a short period of time, you just have to pay.

In any case it seems like they are forced to produce numbers quite fast for business reasons, and this has caused them to present the stats in the most positive light possible. The virus situation is not an entirely crazy excuse, but it will be interesting to see what happens.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#47

Post by wly_cdgr »

Having majored in English Literature at an Ivy, let me just say, 30% is a pretty damn good industry placement rate. That said, I'm sure the large majority of those people could have done just as well through self-study and $1-2k worth of MOOCs

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#48

Post by dnautics »

bocklund wrote: post #42
dnautics wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one single thing that makes traditional university education succesful is aptitude and drive. Networking, connections, and (external) credentialism?

Networking and connections get university students good jobs. Aptitude and drive are what makes them good at those jobs. I think the post you responded to was talking about the latter type of “success” at universities, but both are valid metrics of success.

I believe you are talking about excellence which is correlated to, but not necessarily concommitant with success.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#49

Post by minimaxir »

bingohbangoh wrote: post #46

Wonder if Austen is gonna make an appearance and say hes happy to answer any questions

Here's the last time Austen answered questions about Lambda School, which did not go well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26948258

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#50

Post by threatofrain »

sam0x17 wrote: post #35
sam0x17 wrote: post #24

It isn't just Lambda School. I mentor for [insert large coding bootcamp here] and I will say things have been going badly across the board for more than 50% of students. They recently had to cut a lot of staff, and completion rates seem to hover around only 50-60% when you take into account all the students they remove from this calculation when they withdraw for "personal reasons". The employment numbers I don't hav…

One huge mistake I think a lot (but not all of) the bootcamps are making is taking the easy route of simply using JavaScript to teach both frontend and backend. JavaScript is a TERRIBLE first programming language. I usually have to spend 2-3 sessions per mentee explaining the idiosyncrasies of JavaScript, where some of the OOP concepts actually come from, and how things work in other languages to put into context the…

JS is a small language when you consider the core of constructs which are in use today. I'd ballpark JS to be around 80-120 "constructs", which will differ based on how you divide semantic and conceptual units of learning. I'd ballpark Go to be around 80-120 as well.

A junior developer who is just learning how to code will not deal with all of JS historical baggage; they will deal with historical JS when joining a large historical codebase. A junior developer will also not be dealing with the different quirks arising from different browser runtimes. These are concerns for businesses who already have products.

But a Student does not encounter these things while learning and writing greenfield apps. Otherwise we are advocating for a student to learn an additional "learning" language. That sounds ideal for a 4 year university program.

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