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Microsoft removes hot reload from open source .NET, locks it to Visual Studio

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Re: Microsoft removes hot reload from open source .NET, locks it to Visual Studio

#41

Post by spacentropy »

tluyben2 wrote: post #31
atraac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO - Rider. It's way better with its autocomplete, refactoring, renames, code completion, debugging, 3rd party code navigation, overall responsiveness. I've switched and I feel physically disabled whenever I have to do something in Visual Studio again. The only thing that is lacking in Rider is Azure support(plugin is meh), but I don't really use that anymore, we have CI/CD for that.

I try Rider ever so often but what specs are your system; it is basically unusable after I load one of our bigger projects... My m1 16gb just grinds to halt and before I had a beefy thinkpad with 32gb and that stalled completely too. While VS has no issue at all.

Have you tried Rider for Apple Silicon? You can grab a preview here https://rider-support.jetbrains.com/hc/en-us/articles/440192...

Re: Microsoft removes hot reload from open source .NET, locks it to Visual Studio

#42

Post by CodesInChaos »

vbilopav wrote: post #25

They are reverting it back https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/pull/22262

That looks like a pull-request by a random github user, and the approvals don't appear to be by maintainers either. So this PR means little.

Re: Microsoft removes hot reload from open source .NET, locks it to Visual Studio

#43

Post by rbanffy »

tluyben2 wrote: post #37
blub wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lesson that you may not want to learn here: the guaranteed disappointment in .NET and Microsoft can be reasonably easily avoided by avoiding them .

As someone who suffered through MS and Oracle (Oracle directly killed one of my companies; MS did a lot of collateral damage) in the 80s and 90s, they have been more than nice for the open source community after Balmer. I hope they rectify this one.

While they have been supporting open source (because, if they didn’t, they’d become irrelevant in no time), there’s nothing that says they aren’t just playing a long embrace, extend, extinguish game here. They may never reach the extinguish part because they can’t find a way to lock users in, but, still, they have interests that are still completely opposite to the welfare of an open source community.

Re: Microsoft removes hot reload from open source .NET, locks it to Visual Studio

#45

Post by tluyben2 »

rbanffy wrote: post #43
tluyben2 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who suffered through MS and Oracle (Oracle directly killed one of my companies; MS did a lot of collateral damage) in the 80s and 90s, they have been more than nice for the open source community after Balmer. I hope they rectify this one.

While they have been supporting open source (because, if they didn’t, they’d become irrelevant in no time), there’s nothing that says they aren’t just playing a long embrace, extend, extinguish game here. They may never reach the extinguish part because they can’t find a way to lock users in, but, still, they have interests that are still completely opposite to the welfare of an open source community.

It seems unlikely to me: developers have power these days and their voice, threads like this, appear on radars of management. Even if some pencil pusher 'decided' something, there is no real way out in my opinion. This will probably be reversed and they really have issues because of the .net foundation fall out: as much as I wish to be 25 again, this is not the 90s anymore.

Re: Microsoft removes hot reload from open source .NET, locks it to Visual Studio

#46

Post by jen20 »

tluyben2 wrote: post #31
atraac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO - Rider. It's way better with its autocomplete, refactoring, renames, code completion, debugging, 3rd party code navigation, overall responsiveness. I've switched and I feel physically disabled whenever I have to do something in Visual Studio again. The only thing that is lacking in Rider is Azure support(plugin is meh), but I don't really use that anymore, we have CI/CD for that.

I try Rider ever so often but what specs are your system; it is basically unusable after I load one of our bigger projects... My m1 16gb just grinds to halt and before I had a beefy thinkpad with 32gb and that stalled completely too. While VS has no issue at all.

Are you sure you’re running a native ARM build of Rider? And how are you running _Visual Studio_ (not VS Code) on an M1-equipped machine?

Re: Microsoft removes hot reload from open source .NET, locks it to Visual Studio

#47

Post by rbanffy »

tluyben2 wrote: post #45
rbanffy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While they have been supporting open source (because, if they didn’t, they’d become irrelevant in no time), there’s nothing that says they aren’t just playing a long embrace, extend, extinguish game here. They may never reach the extinguish part because they can’t find a way to lock users in, but, still, they have interests that are still completely opposite to the welfare of an open source community.

It seems unlikely to me: developers have power these days and their voice, threads like this, appear on radars of management. Even if some pencil pusher 'decided' something, there is no real way out in my opinion. This will probably be reversed and they really have issues because of the .net foundation fall out: as much as I wish to be 25 again, this is not the 90s anymore.

I agree. They can lock in some users, but not that many. Their monopoly power is gone and it seems gone for good.

Re: Microsoft removes hot reload from open source .NET, locks it to Visual Studio

#48

Post by deburo »

ripley12 wrote: post #17
deburo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the huge disappointment but there’s a bit of hyperbole there. Anyway, lets hope they reconsider w/ .net 7. At the pace they’re going, in a years time.

Not hyperbole. If .NET is going to stay relevant in the long run, it needs a better reputation for cross-platform development and much better tooling outside of Visual Studio. Newcomers to the language expect it to work well in VS Code, and they are frequently disappointed. This decision moves .NET backward in areas it already needs to do better in, and to add insult to injury it does so by deleting already-working c…

It's disappointing that they want it to be exclusive to VS (that giant turtle) right now, but it's a new Hot Reload feature. For most existing .NET devs, it's business as usual.

It may set a trend in which VS is pushed as the tool of choice to develop in .NET, which would be a total bummer. I'm a bit skeptical about this since they would be damaging their huge investment in VSCode and cmdline tools. As far as I know, Azure is still their priority. What happened to their leadership to cause such a reversal? Pressure to sell more VS licenses? Maybe, but it still seems doubtful.

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt until they either explain themselves better, or they release .NET 7 without any goodies to the cmdline devs.

Re: Microsoft removes hot reload from open source .NET, locks it to Visual Studio

#49

Post by VortexDream »

jung_j wrote: post #27

It looks like they'll revert the change: https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/pull/22262

Sort of nuts that it is solely reliant on Microsoft to approve this change. Calls the whole .NET Foundation into question, imo. What good is open source if the sole steward has interests that conflict with the overall well-being of everything under the NET umbrella.

Re: Microsoft removes hot reload from open source .NET, locks it to Visual Studio

#50

Post by Angius »

fartcannon wrote: post #9

At some point you have to start asking yourself, why do I tolerate this stuff when there are better alternatives elsewhere? Ditch Microsoft. Ditch closed computing.

I haven't found a more pleasant language and ecosystem to use than C#. Where am I going to go, Java with its verbosity, so my projects double in LOCs? Rust, with its cliff of a learning curve and alien syntax?
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