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The Reemergence of Style in Software

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Re: The Reemergence of Style in Software

#41

Post by jimmaswell »

prox wrote: post #18
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #9

> Modern software’s humdrum lack of identity has resulted in users craving more interesting, opinionated tools, tools that feel like us — or a better, more interesting, wackier version of us. The above is the kind of sentence that you'll see in almost any fashion or arts magazine. Pretty fluffy stuff. Not really the kind of thing we're used to, in the engineering community. That said, I firmly believe that there's al…

I am going to make a claim as someone who works in both the crossroad of devwork and design that there is not one piece of software that caters truly for the artist. Every piece of software for artists / designers is not intuitive. It’s sliders, knobs, modals and panels. Programmers making design software is Not A Good Idea. The way forward is something like ProCreate, so just the software and the pen, and maybe more…

What do you want, an AI that reads your mind and generates the exact art you want? Barring that, a perfectly intuitive tool is impossible past a certain point of complexity. If you want something in front of something else you're going to have to learn what a layer is. If you want something at just the right transparency you're going to have to adjust the transparency.

Maybe some kind of virtual art studio in VR would be helpful for people who want a more physically intuitive experience with some extras like undo and saving copies, but even then you're still going to have to learn a thing or two about the tool to use it, like any tool.

Re: The Reemergence of Style in Software

#42

Post by ksec »

prox wrote: post #18
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #9

> Modern software’s humdrum lack of identity has resulted in users craving more interesting, opinionated tools, tools that feel like us — or a better, more interesting, wackier version of us. The above is the kind of sentence that you'll see in almost any fashion or arts magazine. Pretty fluffy stuff. Not really the kind of thing we're used to, in the engineering community. That said, I firmly believe that there's al…

I am going to make a claim as someone who works in both the crossroad of devwork and design that there is not one piece of software that caters truly for the artist. Every piece of software for artists / designers is not intuitive. It’s sliders, knobs, modals and panels. Programmers making design software is Not A Good Idea. The way forward is something like ProCreate, so just the software and the pen, and maybe more…

>The way forward is something like ProCreate

You mean [1] ? I dont disagree with your point but I dont understand how pro create is any different to any other design software on iPad.

[1] https://procreate.art

Re: The Reemergence of Style in Software

#43

Post by Akronymus »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #9

> Modern software’s humdrum lack of identity has resulted in users craving more interesting, opinionated tools, tools that feel like us — or a better, more interesting, wackier version of us. The above is the kind of sentence that you'll see in almost any fashion or arts magazine. Pretty fluffy stuff. Not really the kind of thing we're used to, in the engineering community. That said, I firmly believe that there's al…

> That said, I firmly believe that there's always a place for good graphic and interaction design, in technology.

Form should come after function. But often times form actually contributes to function. (In the sense of making the "right" thing intuitive to do)

Function is IMO always paramount.

Re: The Reemergence of Style in Software

#44

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

ksec wrote: post #42
prox wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am going to make a claim as someone who works in both the crossroad of devwork and design that there is not one piece of software that caters truly for the artist. Every piece of software for artists / designers is not intuitive. It’s sliders, knobs, modals and panels. Programmers making design software is Not A Good Idea. The way forward is something like ProCreate, so just the software and the pen, and maybe more…

>The way forward is something like ProCreate You mean [1] ? I dont disagree with your point but I dont understand how pro create is any different to any other design software on iPad. [1] https://procreate.art

ProCreate works very well with the Apple Pencil.

The Apple Pencil, and the iPad Pro (esp. the latest of each), is awesome. They did a really good job on that.

I don't use ProCreate, but that's mostly because I'm not really that kind of graphic designer.

I remember looking at "paintbox" tools for video effects, in the 1970s. We've come a long, long way, and real artists have some really nice tools at their disposal.

Re: The Reemergence of Style in Software

#45

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

Akronymus wrote: post #43
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #9

> Modern software’s humdrum lack of identity has resulted in users craving more interesting, opinionated tools, tools that feel like us — or a better, more interesting, wackier version of us. The above is the kind of sentence that you'll see in almost any fashion or arts magazine. Pretty fluffy stuff. Not really the kind of thing we're used to, in the engineering community. That said, I firmly believe that there's al…

> That said, I firmly believe that there's always a place for good graphic and interaction design, in technology. Form should come after function. But often times form actually contributes to function. (In the sense of making the "right" thing intuitive to do) Function is IMO always paramount.

I've found the process to be iterative. Chicken->egg-chicken->egg... etc.

Re: The Reemergence of Style in Software

#46

Post by ksec »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #44
ksec wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The way forward is something like ProCreate You mean [1] ? I dont disagree with your point but I dont understand how pro create is any different to any other design software on iPad. [1] https://procreate.art

ProCreate works very well with the Apple Pencil. The Apple Pencil, and the iPad Pro (esp. the latest of each), is awesome. They did a really good job on that. I don't use ProCreate, but that's mostly because I'm not really that kind of graphic designer. I remember looking at "paintbox" tools for video effects, in the 1970s. We've come a long, long way, and real artists have some really nice tools at their disposal.

So it is Apple Pencil that is making the difference, Not Pro Create?

Because parent mention Apps were the problem? Or is it more like Apps designed for Apple Pencil will be the future? Not mouse and keyboard?

Re: The Reemergence of Style in Software

#47

Post by andybak »

agumonkey wrote: post #35
andybak wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I read the first sentence and my immediate reaction was "Well I don't. And I'm not sure anyone has ever expressed that opinion to me" and I stopped reading.

There's a bit of truth. The era of extremely engineered everything gave birth to flat design for instance. I'm not pro skeumorphism but I remember how odd software felt good in a way. As long as it was fun (good boards, useful programs) you ended up liking the quirks.

I don’t disagree but I didn’t get any of that from that opening statement. It seems to be arguing for diversity in UI which I happen to think is usually a terrible idea.

Re: The Reemergence of Style in Software

#48

Post by andybak »

coldtea wrote: post #39
andybak wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I read the first sentence and my immediate reaction was "Well I don't. And I'm not sure anyone has ever expressed that opinion to me" and I stopped reading.

Well, here's that opinion: today's flat UIs all look the same, boring, and bland. I wish there was more quirkiness too. Perhaps not to Kai Power tool's levels, but I enjoy the functional quirkiness of many VST UIs. Now you can continue reading. Seldom anybody learned much, when they stopped reading at the point they disagreed with.

I want my UI’s to be usable. I want it to be immediately obvious what I need to do. I want them to become invisible in the same way good tools do. I don’t want my hammer to be quirky, I want it to be an extension of my hand.

EDIT - Yeah. I have a certain fondness for Kai’s. But I had time to get used to them. It’s one UI in a thousand where I have time to get bedded in with it’s quirks. For all the rest - be boring.

Re: The Reemergence of Style in Software

#49

Post by Lammy »

kwertyoowiyop wrote: post #20
schleck8 wrote: post #8

I don't want to know how much money was paid for these logos https://future.a16z.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Logo-Tran...

Can we also talk about how everyone’s clip art looks so much alike? All those tubular-limbed primary-colored simple sausage people make me wince. I guess when you’re making the 10,000th SaaS you just want to be like the others.

It’s a nice way for companies to look diverse without actually being diverse.

Re: The Reemergence of Style in Software

#50

Post by gumby »

pjc50 wrote: post #32
gumby wrote: post #27

I think this is an undergrad paper published on a blog. It’s hard to see if this article is really making a legit point, from a confusing typos early (swapping “form” and “function”, or claiming beige was used in software, when all displays were monochrome back then) to pulling out random historical artifacts apparently without understanding them (the Star’s portrait display was not “distinct”; on the contrary the sw…

The claim was that beige was the color of hardware (accompanied by a link discussing this claim). Portrait displays have never been very common (TVs were always landscape). This feels like a particularly picky bit of nitpicking.

Criticizing a comment for its picayune choice of criticism is quite reasonable, but in this case I don't think applicable.

I simply picked those as examples right from the beginning of the essay: the old workstations like Alto, Dorado, Dolphin, Dandelion (Star), CADR, LMI, Explorer, PERQ, blt, and even the old AAA were all portrait. That was the context into which the Star was released. It was seemingly the workstation form factor until the arrival of the PC. Likewise the sentence reading "Early computing and software stuck to shades of black, white, and beige" (emphasis mine). I only mentioned the nonsense about the trashcan later to demonstrate that this was a pervasive problem, rather than merely one brainfart at the beginning of the essay, which could have simply been poor editing.

A deeper example (which I cited) also shows up right up front: the complete misunderstanding of form vs function that implies the author really didn't know what they were talking about (to cite that is to pull in a century of famous discussion; if you don't understand it how could your argument reply upon it?)

I could go on but this essay isn't worth my (or your) time. There is a very interesting argument to be made on this topic, but this blog post isn't it.

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