41–50 of 62 posts
The article doesn't substantiate that Weinstein experienced past humiliation (let alone that this partially motivated his evil). This seemingly-speculative humanization doesn't seem fair to his victims.
Anyone else disappointed not to hear more about the Sheila interaction?
I think she should have left it out. As anecdotes about humiliation go, it's not much. There's no mention that Sheila publicly shamed her (as the author, by the way, has now publicly shamed Sheila), she just didn't want to be friends anymore. And she's still holding a grudge against her erstwhile friend from when she was 13? People grow apart, especially around major life transitions like adolescence.
Does a humiliated person bear any responsibility for their feeling? I ask because while I sympathize with her examples, I can also think of many unsympathetic examples of humiliations, and the person's response to it, and I'd wonder whether humiliations are the result of power shifts. Many people I know are sympathetic to violent responses to humiliation, and even in the article, the interviews with convicted muderer…
Advantages, privilege, power imbalances... All of these are at the core of humiliation. It's all about the violation of a person's sense of self. You believe you have worth but someone else comes along and strips you of it.
> the interviews with convicted muderers showed their decision to kill someone was often over a related issue of respect.
This is universal in human nature. When one person humiliates another, consequences are likely. Even in civilized society, there are consequences. They just tend to be more formal and indirect. They come in the form of simple exclusion from a group, not being elevated for a prestigious position, trials at a court of law, things like that. In less civilized circles, people are held accountable for their words and actions immediately, directly and violently. For certain kinds of people, a man getting his respect is more important than his life.
Humiliation causes violence. In so many cases, physical violence was not going to happen until the victim said or did something that humiliated the perpetrator. Challenging a man with a gun by saying he doesn't have the balls to shoot it will provoke an attack. It humiliates him, makes him less of a man and leaves him no option but to shoot. It's really easy to end up making this sort of challenge while under a stressful situation. There are no shortage of cases where a violent person starts to leave the area but the victim just has to get that last insult in, they just need to have the last word, teach them a lesson and put them back in their place. "Yeah, crawl back to the shithole you came out of." Is it any wonder the situation escalates to violence?
> And yet, we wouldn't blame someone or hold them morally culpable in a disadvantaged relationship for turning the tables, even with a pair of scissors in the back.
It's interesting to observe who is and isn't blamed. For example, incels also fit this description and they are certainly unsympathetic to the vast majority of people despite the constant humiliation they endure.
Anyone else disappointed not to hear more about the Sheila interaction?
I asked myself how a 63 year old would recognize a childhood friend on the street. My assumption is Sheila found her on purpose, because she had lived her whole life with this burden of regret, and wanted to apologize. I have a similar burden, and occasionally try to look up an old friend, but his name is too common.
I guess this is kinda judgmental on my part, but I feel like a lot of the personal anecdotes you hear about from.. older Americans.. seem totally anachronistic and bizarre. Like: > On the other hand, I have a cousin, a doctor, who feels humiliated if he’s shortchanged in a grocery store. His wife, too: if another woman is wearing the same dress at a party, she feels humiliated. Like -- who are these people? They just…
As it happens I agree with you here, at least personally, and here is why: humiliation is an EMOTIONAL feeling and you cannot assume it is justifiable. Narcissists can feel humilated over not being treated like they are God almighty. Bigots can feel humiliated over having to engage with subhumans as if they are people. I've got a brother who is humilated if he has to bag his own groceries at the grocery store, and goes into rather well-disciplined and civilized rage over it. Likewise if he's served food and something is wrong with it or with the service: he, in a dignified way, punishes everyone as hard as he can and goes to war.
We cannot go by feelings like this: it can't be personal. There has to be a contextualization where you say 'no, you cannot beat that passing lady to death because she rolled her eyes at you and sneered'.
That's why humiliation is so dangerous: both for individuals and for societies. It spurs these extreme, vengeful reactions, but there seems to be NO requirement that it is over some justifiable slight. We're far too subjective to trust this reaction in anyone or anything. Being able to take a broader view is indispensable.
Some of the most capable, powerful people in the world are walking wounded, forever acting out revenge on past, unreachable humiliations. It's tragic, but also dangerous. It's why we have laws and police and such: we've never not had this problem.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think she should have left it out. As anecdotes about humiliation go, it's not much. There's no mention that Sheila publicly shamed her (as the author, by the way, has now publicly shamed Sheila), she just didn't want to be friends anymore. And she's still holding a grudge against her erstwhile friend from when she was 13? People grow apart, especially around major life transitions like adolescence.
The humiliation was when Sheila said she was best friends with Edna now. Being public has nothing to do with it, in that incident or at basically any point in the article.
The "now" is especially important. It implies the friendship they shared was never real. Sheila was just keeping her around while she waited for someone better to be friends with.
Does a humiliated person bear any responsibility for their feeling? I ask because while I sympathize with her examples, I can also think of many unsympathetic examples of humiliations, and the person's response to it, and I'd wonder whether humiliations are the result of power shifts. Many people I know are sympathetic to violent responses to humiliation, and even in the article, the interviews with convicted muderer…
I imagine there is at least a 2x2 matrix of humiliation: on one axis, there's intention (did A intend to humiliate B, or was it inadvertent?). On the other axis, there's public versus private: is the person humiliated in a way that other people will know and remember?
There may be more axes, but those are the big ones, to me.
It seems like it's fairly uncontroversial to say that someone who inadvertently inflicts a private humiliation known only to the humiliated deserves the least amount of blame, while someone who intentionally humiliates someone in public deserves the most.
For example, an inadvertent, private humiliation might be that you and I are talking privately, and you make a joke about my alma mater, which I care a lot about. You didn't mean it personally: you didn't even know I went there, let alone that I was sensitive about it. No one else hears you say this, and two minutes later you've forgotten about it. On the other hand, I take it to heart, and carry a grudge for years.
Most people would say you're not really at fault at all. You could have been more circumspect, but I'm the one who needs to lighten up.
On the other hand, if you and your partner are at the beach, and I come up to you and kick sand in your face, and everybody around you laughs, that's a public humiliation, and I'm 100% responsible for it.
These feel like different situations, and the distinctions between them just aren't captured by the single word 'humiliation'. Perhaps these more precise words exist in English, and we just don't use them very well, but it feels like if we did then this confusion wouldn't even arise.
It's like having 50 different words for snow, because snow is such a large part of your culture. Our vocabulary for talking about humiliation is limited. On the other hand, I'm not sure I want to live in a culture that has 50 different words for humiliation!
I guess this is kinda judgmental on my part, but I feel like a lot of the personal anecdotes you hear about from.. older Americans.. seem totally anachronistic and bizarre. Like: > On the other hand, I have a cousin, a doctor, who feels humiliated if he’s shortchanged in a grocery store. His wife, too: if another woman is wearing the same dress at a party, she feels humiliated. Like -- who are these people? They just…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think she should have left it out. As anecdotes about humiliation go, it's not much. There's no mention that Sheila publicly shamed her (as the author, by the way, has now publicly shamed Sheila), she just didn't want to be friends anymore. And she's still holding a grudge against her erstwhile friend from when she was 13? People grow apart, especially around major life transitions like adolescence.
It's also the consequence of being shackled to a literary technique common to these long form articles, for authors to write themselves into the piece, in order to make the content more relatable to the audience. It's a form of exhibitionism, where the author has to come up with something recognizable, but not too revealing or truly heart wrecking. Something milquetoast form adolescence will do in a pinch. I am sure…