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Facebook’s documents about Instagram and teens, published

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Re: Facebook’s documents about Instagram and teens, published

#41

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/03/trends-suicide > The suicide rate increased 33 percent from 1999 through 2017, from 10.5 to 14 suicides per 100,000 people (NCHS Data Brief No. 330, November 2018). Rates have increased more sharply since 2006. Suicide ranks as the fourth leading cause of death for people ages 35 to 54, and the second for 10- to 34-year-olds. It remains the 10th leading cause of death overall. >But…

The rising teen suicide proves everyone’s favorite social critique. Declining church attendance. Declining corporeal punishment. The academic rat race. Climate change. Whatever I don’t like about the world is why the kids are killing themselves. Having had friends struggle with this when I was a teenager, I find it incredibly disrespectful and in poor taste to leverage their suffering in this lazy and offhand way as…

Your overall point is valid, but this last comment is unnecessary.

> I find it incredibly disrespectful and in poor taste to leverage their suffering in this lazy and offhand way as an argument for your political opinions.

I find it odd that's one of the conclusions you drew from the parent's comment. You're making a baseless claim that the OP has a political agenda (I didn't get this sense at all) when they were clearly demonstrating that there is potential causation and providing insight/opinion to it. You make it sound like we can't even have discussions about suicide because "we're leveraging suffering". I don't think you meant to direct that at the parent but rather politicians, otherwise your comment is far more distasteful and not posted in good faith.

Re: Facebook’s documents about Instagram and teens, published

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moderate four LGBTQIA+ communities and support spaces on Facebook, totaling over 395k members. I cover both my local scene and international communities. Without the online spaces, most members wouldn't have friends. The bulk of the work is managing the news feeds and the main task is to approve posts individually. So we see them all. Many would otherwise be totally isolated. Teens in rural America are among the mo…

Thank you for your perspective. Do you think that the LGBTQIA+ community is best served in this method? For instance, art communities would have been a stand in for many before, and from my exposure it seems to have had very good effects for marginalized people who aren't mainstream due to interests, sexual orientation, or creativity and ideas that are normally dismissed. They seem to be the least polarized people I…

> Do you think that the LGBTQIA+ community is best served in this method?

Ideally, there would be dedicated spaces because the existing spaces are generally very hostile. For example, it is common for people to create fake profiles in order to get past the first layer of verification (looking at the profile and reading the required questions). Once in, they take pleasure in contacting members to push them to suicide. Online trolling with real dangers.

There is also the fact that the mission of the platform is generally not very compatible or at least the lack of attention to the LGBTQIA+ communities creates such negative experiences.

For example, Facebook's automatic moderation detects ordinary slurs but not targeted homophobic or transphobic slurs or "dogwhistles." This often results in a troll using something like "you'll never be a woman" or calling transgender people "the 41%" or "join the 41%" (in direct reference to suicide rates).

Understandably, users get frustrated and tell these users to go away using harsh words, and also report the troll to Facebook. What usually happens is that automatic moderation does not detect the troll, responding that the comments do not violate their terms of service. However, "griefers" often report legitimate users. The recent changes make this very easy, as something as innocent as writing "why is this man here?" in a space dedicated to lesbians will be flagged as hate speech against a gender identity. Thus, the troll gets away with it and the users are banned for 30 days by the platform. Often, a troll can manage to flag enough comments to have entire groups shut down by the automatic moderation tools.

This makes these spaces unsafe for supporting vulnerable people. For example, one public page that I have access to the admin panel has such a large ban list that I'm not able to get the exact number without the admin page crashing. By playing with the APIs, I was able to get a count of 25k bans before it also crashed and returned errors.

But as you said, alternative sites can be just as dangerous. Sites like Tumblr quickly become echo chambers and a race to the bottom. They've been very helpful in providing a space, but the lack of oversight makes them potentially dangerous.

To answer your question about your friend, bisexuals are often one of the least supported and understood demographic groups. This brings us back to my earlier point about echo chambers. It is common for subcommunities to gather around hate, and the LGBTQIA+ community is no exception. There are many spaces where otherwise queer people gather to denigrate bi identities, invalidating entire labels because they don't take the time to understand them properly. I would argue that there are also a number of people who do this to make themselves feel better. "Finally someone I punch down to". Even the queer articles and literature of the 70s were hostile to bi people.

This is one of the many reasons I think there needs to be better LGBTQIA+ spaces. Moderation is important, but so is free speech. It is a fine line to walk. But one thing that's sure is that 90's style "free for all" internet can be very harmful for kids.

Re: Facebook’s documents about Instagram and teens, published

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rising teen suicide proves everyone’s favorite social critique. Declining church attendance. Declining corporeal punishment. The academic rat race. Climate change. Whatever I don’t like about the world is why the kids are killing themselves. Having had friends struggle with this when I was a teenager, I find it incredibly disrespectful and in poor taste to leverage their suffering in this lazy and offhand way as…

What is my lazy, poor taste or political opinion? You are attacking my post with no evidence or counter points, a emotional response that isn't based on anything other than hearsay, the first section is a strawman, and the second is how your sample bias should dismiss any other experiences. Is it not hypocritical to dismiss the effect of social media on suicide, such as by cyber bullying? My experience with social me…

I think the point is, there are plenty of signals that increase suicide rate. Without full and proper analysis (e.g., control group, etc.) tying social media to suicide rate is correlation.

And as presented, that comes off as opinion.

Note: I'm not taking sides. I'm only wanting to answer your question :) please don't shoot the messenger.

Re: Facebook’s documents about Instagram and teens, published

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is my lazy, poor taste or political opinion? You are attacking my post with no evidence or counter points, a emotional response that isn't based on anything other than hearsay, the first section is a strawman, and the second is how your sample bias should dismiss any other experiences. Is it not hypocritical to dismiss the effect of social media on suicide, such as by cyber bullying? My experience with social me…

Social media is one of dozens of social changes in the last N years. You can line any one of them up next to any bad outcome. This is not generally being done from a place of epistemic humility or interest in establishing causation. It’s just “thing I already don’t like lines up with bad outcome, see how right I am not to like it!” If that’s not what you’re doing, I don’t mean it as an attack on you. I just think we’…

Thank you for the clarification. It is a multi dimensional problem, and I have found very negative effects from social media for myself and people around me.

I do not think that social media is overall good for mental health, it has been shown to be harmful in statistics especially for women and also there is no shortage of n=1 articles on benefits of quitting it. I think it is a serious issue when the teenage suicide rates are higher in the US (pre corona) when it is a wealthy country. If you can clarify, what is the problem you have with my post? I am posting it not only from personal experience but also with data to substantiate my claims.

Re: Facebook’s documents about Instagram and teens, published

#47
Someone already posted the archive of the WSJ article. But also the actual leaked documents don't seem to be paywalled.

https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/teen-girls-body...

https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/teen-mental-hea...

https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/appearance-base...

https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/social-comparis...

https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/mental-health-f...

https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/teens-young-adu...

Re: Facebook’s documents about Instagram and teens, published

#48
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is assuming that facebook usage is globally homogenous. Social climates, sex and age play a huge factor. Young insecure girls that are bombarded with how they should look, and what their friends are doing without them will not be affected as the boomer who only goes onto facebook marketplace to sell, talk with family, or the kind that posts trump memes. Heres some interesting data. https://www.smartinsights.com/…

I don't think usage of instagram is much different here in western europe and the results regarding teen suicide are not the same seemingly. So I'm not sure of what to think. Open to being proven wrong about instagram usage in the us vs europe. I haven't really looked into it. But it seems all teens and preteens here are hooked on it.

It is multidimensional, it does not mean that social media is going to have the same effect even among the same country with the same usage. Widespread anti-semitism for instance in the US did not cause the holocaust as it did in Germany. The culture in parts different parts of western Europe is different than it is from southern US and northern US.

You will find no shortage of people quitting social media and reporting benefits around the world, the algorithms on instagram will also vary with what is shown. Without enough data I cannot quantify it but other factor such as wealth are also associated with suicides, low income and high income communities have lower suicide rates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...

Re: Facebook’s documents about Instagram and teens, published

#49
post #6

As much as I don't like social media and Zuck in general, I think social media get a lot of undeserved blame. The biggest culture shock I had coming to North America, how materialistic, exhibitionistic and keeping-up-with-the-joneses the whole culture is. Sure, social media has made it worse. Before you can broadcast your fancy car to your neighbors, but cannot broadcast your fancy dinner to the whole world. With soc…

> But the culture of materialism and obsession with status was there well before social media has come into the picture. This is a pretty gross generalization of an entire country filled with diverse people, a significant number of whom do not match this description at all, now or before social media. On what are you basing this? This sounds like the kind of conclusion you might draw by using social media as a measur…

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Re: Facebook’s documents about Instagram and teens, published

#50
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're kinda right but its not exclusive to US. Social media did not happen in a vacuum, there was a whole fertile ground prepared for it with decades of couch-potato consumer behavioural conditioning, which has been a global phenomenon for at least 50 years or so.

Is the name “social media” doublespeak? Comparing the online or digital equivalent or approximation as a simulation of reality has either created a false hyperreality at best but usually that of a poor imitation.

It is still reality. You're talking to real people, not NPCs.
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