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Tim Cook Faces Surprising Employee Unrest at Apple

nytimes.com

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Re: Tim Cook Faces Surprising Employee Unrest at Apple

#41

Post by majormajor »

exBarrelSpoiler wrote: post #39
majormajor wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see it. The most disgruntled people I worked with in the past kept most of their griping off of slack or IM or email because they suspected it was logged. Is constant complaining over lunch really less effective than constant complaining in DMs? Or, if it's large channels with lots of participants - what stopped those channels from happening before? Is the idea that people who would've whined over lunch to a…

Prior to Slack, constant complaining would happen at the Caffè Macs, after hours, in the halls, between people in the same or adjacent teams. Now teams are less siloed.

Is that an Apple-specific Covid response? Teams have been more, not less, siloed at the job I've had since Covid started. People bold enough to complain in big mega-channels hasn't happened (similar to how few people would complain in all hands the same way they'd complain at lunch).

Re: Tim Cook Faces Surprising Employee Unrest at Apple

#42

Post by temp8964 »

s5300 wrote: post #27
imgabe wrote: post #8

> Richard Dahan, who is deaf, said he had struggled at his former job at an Apple Store in Maryland for six years because his manager refused to provide a sign-language interpreter for him to communicate with customers, which federal law requires under some circumstances. This just doesn't seem like a reasonable accommodation for a retail job. Your whole job is to communicate with the customers. If you need to hire a…

It is definitely a bit of a conundrum though. One must keep in mind that the United States is and near or more always has been a welfare state. We're supposed to have governments and organizations to come up with solutions to these types of societal problems we encounter. The way you seem to be looking at it - yes, I mostly agree that the company should not outright be expected to essentially hire another fully time…

I think the downvoting is because you mentioned "welfare state", and people demand more welfare hate you to say that. But thankfully downvoting is limited now.

Re: Tim Cook Faces Surprising Employee Unrest at Apple

#43

Post by s5300 »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #36
s5300 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is definitely a bit of a conundrum though. One must keep in mind that the United States is and near or more always has been a welfare state. We're supposed to have governments and organizations to come up with solutions to these types of societal problems we encounter. The way you seem to be looking at it - yes, I mostly agree that the company should not outright be expected to essentially hire another fully time…

> One must keep in mind that the United States is and near or more always has been a welfare state. If one must keep that in mind, may one ask what definition of "welfare state" has applied to the USA since its founding?

Religious groups typically look after their own. Take care of the poor, needy, and disabled. For quite a long time, most US states were essentially religious areas/boundaries, which is why much of New England is seen as quite puritanical to this day.

Go read about the history of Mormons and Utah. The reason the surrounding borders are so weird is because the U.S. gov essentially tried to thwart a larger land grab by the LDS

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Deseret

Their tenants were largely about taking care of each other.

So, in short - there were a lot of welfare states, mostly segregated by religion. As time went on, they mostly morphed into an encompassing welfare state.

Do you disagree? HN is definitely a tough crowd when it comes to ideas of helping the less fortunate it seems. Hopefully your future physical therapists won't charge too much when your ruined backs and wrists are hurting, despite the fact capitalism says "why shouldn't they reap your pains for all they're worth"

Re: Tim Cook Faces Surprising Employee Unrest at Apple

#44

Post by wolverine876 »

> I understand the secrecy piece is important for product security, to surprise and delight customers

When was the last time you were surprised and delighted by an Apple product? I think they make the world's best, and most responsible, products, but surprised by an iPhone upgrade? When was the last time they created a new category?

Re: Tim Cook Faces Surprising Employee Unrest at Apple

#45

Post by sxp »

majormajor wrote: post #16
imgabe wrote: post #8

> Richard Dahan, who is deaf, said he had struggled at his former job at an Apple Store in Maryland for six years because his manager refused to provide a sign-language interpreter for him to communicate with customers, which federal law requires under some circumstances. This just doesn't seem like a reasonable accommodation for a retail job. Your whole job is to communicate with the customers. If you need to hire a…

I bought an iPhone from an Apple Store employee who couldn't speak but used a phone to communicate with me by typing out their messages. It was perfectly fine. I'm a bit surprised speech to text these days wouldn't basically take you as far as you need to go for a deaf employee. That said, if you take away jobs with a large communication component from the deaf, that rules out A LOT. I think reasonable accommodations…

> He said that he had communicated with customers by typing on an iPad, and that some customers had refused to work with him as a result. When he told his manager, the manager said it was the customers’ right, he said....He was eventually assigned an interpreter. But by that time, he said, upper management viewed him as a complainer and refused to promote him.

Using an iPad/iPhone seems to be the standard Apple policy, but this employee objected.

Re: Tim Cook Faces Surprising Employee Unrest at Apple

#46

Post by ekianjo »

imgabe wrote: post #26
majormajor wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought an iPhone from an Apple Store employee who couldn't speak but used a phone to communicate with me by typing out their messages. It was perfectly fine. I'm a bit surprised speech to text these days wouldn't basically take you as far as you need to go for a deaf employee. That said, if you take away jobs with a large communication component from the deaf, that rules out A LOT. I think reasonable accommodations…

I’ve also been a customer at establishments with deaf employees and none of them ever had a sign language interpreter. Providing an iPad to type messages on is a reasonable accommodation. Customers who don’t like it can work with another employee or go elsewhere. But hiring a second entire employee who basically shadows you and does your job for you seems like a bit much.

> Providing an iPad to type messages on is a reasonable accommodation

Doesn't that make communication slower? When I want to buy something, I certainly don't want to start chatting on a tablet to get my point across. It seems like a poor choice of position for that employee.

Re: Tim Cook Faces Surprising Employee Unrest at Apple

#47

Post by JKCalhoun »

madrox wrote: post #10

I don't believe Apple or secrecy is the story here. I think the real story is how the pandemic + slack has changed corporate politics. It used to be that most corporate concerns were raised through HR or the management chain, and power ultimately rested with the executive. Now, Slack means it's much easier to put anyone on blast, and it's much harder to control the narrative. Combined with the pandemic, where all soc…

I think you bring up a very good point. I think Slack is now becoming a company-wide water cooler where any grievance, no matter how distant from your own team, can get a spotlight on it.

It's easy to live in a sort of vacuum if your small team is not witness to discrimination/harassment. In a large enough org it is entirely likely that there is an asshole somewhere that you have never encountered, never worked with that is making someone's life miserable.

I am glad these things are being exposed but saddened that it could be happening in the larger company I work at.

Re: Tim Cook Faces Surprising Employee Unrest at Apple

#48

Post by throwawaylinux »

s5300 wrote: post #43
throwawaylinux wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One must keep in mind that the United States is and near or more always has been a welfare state. If one must keep that in mind, may one ask what definition of "welfare state" has applied to the USA since its founding?

Religious groups typically look after their own. Take care of the poor, needy, and disabled. For quite a long time, most US states were essentially religious areas/boundaries, which is why much of New England is seen as quite puritanical to this day. Go read about the history of Mormons and Utah. The reason the surrounding borders are so weird is because the U.S. gov essentially tried to thwart a larger land grab by…

I don't know, you still haven't provided me with your definition of "welfare state" that has applied to the USA.

Certain groups choosing to take care of their members is not a welfare state so I'm not too sure what you're getting at there.

Re: Tim Cook Faces Surprising Employee Unrest at Apple

#49

Post by wolverine876 »

temp8964 wrote: post #42
s5300 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is definitely a bit of a conundrum though. One must keep in mind that the United States is and near or more always has been a welfare state. We're supposed to have governments and organizations to come up with solutions to these types of societal problems we encounter. The way you seem to be looking at it - yes, I mostly agree that the company should not outright be expected to essentially hire another fully time…

I think the downvoting is because you mentioned "welfare state", and people demand more welfare hate you to say that. But thankfully downvoting is limited now.

> thankfully downvoting is limited now

How is it limited?

Re: Tim Cook Faces Surprising Employee Unrest at Apple

#50

Post by majormajor »

sxp wrote: post #45
majormajor wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought an iPhone from an Apple Store employee who couldn't speak but used a phone to communicate with me by typing out their messages. It was perfectly fine. I'm a bit surprised speech to text these days wouldn't basically take you as far as you need to go for a deaf employee. That said, if you take away jobs with a large communication component from the deaf, that rules out A LOT. I think reasonable accommodations…

> He said that he had communicated with customers by typing on an iPad, and that some customers had refused to work with him as a result. When he told his manager, the manager said it was the customers’ right, he said....He was eventually assigned an interpreter. But by that time, he said, upper management viewed him as a complainer and refused to promote him. Using an iPad/iPhone seems to be the standard Apple polic…

Thank you, that's useful context, without having a subscription.

Does it say anything about if his manager had penalized him for some customers not working with him? If management requires him to post the same numbers despite knowing that, I think that's a big problem. Otherwise, I'm not necessarily sold by his story here.

(I'm curious is customers still refused with an interpreter, too. That's also going to slow things down.)

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