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The Big Escape: How the Ultra-Wealthy Avoid Paying Taxes and How to Fix It [pdf]

warren.senate.gov

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Re: The Big Escape: How the Ultra-Wealthy Avoid Paying Taxes and How to Fix It [pdf]

#41

Post by belltaco »

iammisc wrote: post #8
csallen wrote: post #3

> In 2018, Warren Buffett had a net worth of $84 billion. The effective tax rate on his mountain of wealth? 0.006%—orders of magnitude lower than the tax rates paid by most middle-class families. What tax rate do middle-class families pay on their net worth? 0% I believe, since we don't have wealth taxes?

Yeah, this is written in extremely manipulative language. What was warren buffett's income in 2018? We have income tax, not wealth tax. Plus, a lot of that wealth is likely 'in' his company, which is really just fake money. I mean, I know accountants look at it and there is some overlap for taxes when doing things like options and share grants and FMV, but really, a company is worth zero until you sell it, like most…

>Plus, a lot of that wealth is likely 'in' his company, which is really just fake money.

Then maybe we should give the poor some of this "fake money" since it's fake and doesn't matter anyway.

>EDIT: Repeat after me: net worth increases are not income. Net worth increases are not income. I mean, I "made" $250k last year in home appreciation, but that's just fake money. If they taxed me on it, it would come out of my much smaller take home pay.

>This is the big lie. Most of these asset prices are increased due to inflation anyway. In real terms, both the stock market and real estate have been stagnant for decades, but by inflating the currency, they can make people out to have 'increasing net worth' and then tax them.

This is an actual big lie, since you can borrow against assets like this with secured loans. And you can turn it into cash without moving out immediately with reverse mortgages. How are you able to get "free real money" from "fake money"? Maybe it's not as fake as you think.

Re: The Big Escape: How the Ultra-Wealthy Avoid Paying Taxes and How to Fix It [pdf]

#42

Post by jeffbee »

aidenn0 wrote: post #29
avalys wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair though, we do have property taxes, and many middle-class families have a substantial fraction of their net worth tied up in their house and other real property.

I would even go so far as to say the typical middle-class family has real property in an amount that exceeds their net-worth.

Median American net worth is $121k. Median home price is $380k. Typical real property taxes are .5% - 2%. Call it 1% and that makes the typical wealth tax on middle-class people roughly 3% per year.

Re: The Big Escape: How the Ultra-Wealthy Avoid Paying Taxes and How to Fix It [pdf]

#43

Post by soberpeach »

umeshunni wrote: post #38
soberpeach wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends how the wealth tax is implemented. European wealth taxes were primarily on capital like stocks, which are extremely easy to move, even easier than income. A wealth tax on land (an LVT) is literally impossible to avoid however since you can't move the land.

> A wealth tax on land (an LVT) is literally impossible to avoid however since you can't move the land. Yeah, those are called property taxes and already exist.

Property taxes tax buildings as well, a Land Value Tax is purely a tax on the land and doesn't change whether you have a building on it or not.

Re: The Big Escape: How the Ultra-Wealthy Avoid Paying Taxes and How to Fix It [pdf]

#44

Post by littlestymaar »

anderson1993 wrote: post #2

Sigh... Wealth taxes don't work. Almost every single European country that had a wealth tax repealed theirs. The fact that Senator Warren is continuing to try to push a wealth tax shows how poor her policies are.

I can't talk about other countries, but in my country (France) it didn't get repealed because it “didn't work”, it got repealed because it worked too well and it pissed off the billionaires who lobbied all they could to get it repealed (and even with such intensive lobby it lasted more than 30 years and survived several conservative majorities).

Re: The Big Escape: How the Ultra-Wealthy Avoid Paying Taxes and How to Fix It [pdf]

#45

Post by fairity »

iammisc wrote: post #8
csallen wrote: post #3

> In 2018, Warren Buffett had a net worth of $84 billion. The effective tax rate on his mountain of wealth? 0.006%—orders of magnitude lower than the tax rates paid by most middle-class families. What tax rate do middle-class families pay on their net worth? 0% I believe, since we don't have wealth taxes?

Yeah, this is written in extremely manipulative language. What was warren buffett's income in 2018? We have income tax, not wealth tax. Plus, a lot of that wealth is likely 'in' his company, which is really just fake money. I mean, I know accountants look at it and there is some overlap for taxes when doing things like options and share grants and FMV, but really, a company is worth zero until you sell it, like most…

> In real terms, both the stock market and real estate have been stagnant for decades

What do you mean by this? Inflation over the past couple decades has come in around 2-3%. The stock market has appreciated by much more.

Re: The Big Escape: How the Ultra-Wealthy Avoid Paying Taxes and How to Fix It [pdf]

#46

Post by [deleted] »

iammisc wrote: post #8
csallen wrote: post #3

> In 2018, Warren Buffett had a net worth of $84 billion. The effective tax rate on his mountain of wealth? 0.006%—orders of magnitude lower than the tax rates paid by most middle-class families. What tax rate do middle-class families pay on their net worth? 0% I believe, since we don't have wealth taxes?

Yeah, this is written in extremely manipulative language. What was warren buffett's income in 2018? We have income tax, not wealth tax. Plus, a lot of that wealth is likely 'in' his company, which is really just fake money. I mean, I know accountants look at it and there is some overlap for taxes when doing things like options and share grants and FMV, but really, a company is worth zero until you sell it, like most…

[deleted]

Re: The Big Escape: How the Ultra-Wealthy Avoid Paying Taxes and How to Fix It [pdf]

#47

Post by dahfizz »

jsilence wrote: post #16
anderson1993 wrote: post #2

Sigh... Wealth taxes don't work. Almost every single European country that had a wealth tax repealed theirs. The fact that Senator Warren is continuing to try to push a wealth tax shows how poor her policies are.

Yeah, not taxing the rich also does not work. See the trillion Dollar tax break Pres. Trump and the GOP implemented. The savings were supposed to somehow trickle down to the "lower decks", but this has proven not to happen. Meanwhile the ultra rich are getting ultra richer and the rest is getting poorer. So lets globally coordinated tax the rich for a while in a way that they can not evade their net wealth to some ot…

> The savings were supposed to somehow trickle down to the "lower decks", but this has proven not to happen.

Do you have more info on this? The middle class literally paid less in taxes due to Trump's cuts[1]. The rates were lowered across the board and the standard deduction (negligible to the 1%, a huge chunk of change to the middle class) was increased.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-27/the-trump...

Re: The Big Escape: How the Ultra-Wealthy Avoid Paying Taxes and How to Fix It [pdf]

#48

Post by lvl100 »

Bhilai wrote: post #32

> Name: Elon Musk, Net Worth: $19.9 billion, Federal Income Tax Paid: $8,410 How is this possible? Why does Elon Musk pay less taxes than an average person who works in Tech?

Because our society and govt think the only way to get innovation is to incentivize the rich. That and war.

Re: The Big Escape: How the Ultra-Wealthy Avoid Paying Taxes and How to Fix It [pdf]

#49

Post by kogus »

One answer would be a federal sales tax, combined with a Universal Basic Income.

The UBI would be equal to the amount of the tax on up to some minimum income level (say, 50k / year). In other words, everyone gets a monthly check that is essentially a rebate on their sales tax up to the income threshold.

That's simple, loophole-free, and avoids the privacy invasion that accurate income tax collections require.

Re: The Big Escape: How the Ultra-Wealthy Avoid Paying Taxes and How to Fix It [pdf]

#50

Post by motives »

nerbert wrote: post #11
anderson1993 wrote: post #2

Sigh... Wealth taxes don't work. Almost every single European country that had a wealth tax repealed theirs. The fact that Senator Warren is continuing to try to push a wealth tax shows how poor her policies are.

It's not because they repealed them that they don't work. It could also be a symptom of the current times in which wealthy people became extremely good at influencing politics to reinforce their position.

This is a point worth emphasizing, a tax being repealed does not necessarily imply a lack of efficacy, due to the aforementioned reasons of political influence/corruption etc. Switzerland has done very well with a global wealth tax, arguably being the highest standard of living in Europe.
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