The Frustration with Productivity Culture • Hacker News Board

Re: The Frustration with Productivity Culture

#41

Post by Retric » Wed, Sep 15, 2021, 1:35 AM UTC

abnry wrote: post #30

Barrin92 wrote: post #16

The problem with the entire productivity culture is just how industrialized, bureaucratic and formulaic it is. You read the piece by Newport and there is Henry Ford, the assembly line, 'knowledge work', growth, and so on. Words that don't show up once: freedom, exploration, curiosity, creativity (that does show up once in quotes technically). Everything that makes life interesting is discontinuous and surprising and…

> Yet he also made contributions larger than anyone will ever do by filling up note-taking apps and tracking how much time they spent on their breakfast with a stopwatch. Part of the problem is that both the low hanging fruit has already been picked and the competition is steeper due to a wealthier society. If you can't make a societal impact the magnitude of calculus, why not time your breakfast so that the marginal…

Math is thousands of years old yet many people have made significant strides in multiple fields in the last 200 years. In 1,000 years even more low hanging fruit will be plucked. Yet, I suspect a few people will be notable for their great strides between now and then.

Everyone can’t be Newton, but perhaps everyone can aim higher than yet another note taking app.

Re: The Frustration with Productivity Culture

#42

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 15, 2021, 2:02 AM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #39

weq wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kings and queeens have turned into the captailists and relgious zealots who espouse ideals of productivity and growth in order to secure your obedience and trap you in debt and gives you no choice but to continue on or give up everything. By chasing the money you commit yourself playing within the confines of this system. I instead chase my passion and ive found an employeer who is happy to make those same tradeo…

> Ive switched markets/verticals from gov to private to startups in search of this balance. Am I understanding correctly that you switched to startups to find better work/life balance? I have to say I'm surprised by that. Usually startups have the highest demands and the fewest people to get things done. Can you expand on your experience?

[deleted]

Re: The Frustration with Productivity Culture

#43

Post by throwawaylinux » Wed, Sep 15, 2021, 2:09 AM UTC

aj7 wrote: post #29

It is absurd to tie productivity to workers. An example suffices. A technician running a pair of horizontal machining centers accomplishes the finish machining of eighty automobile engine blocks in an eight hour shift. Now, he’s replaced by a robot and automatic gauging. There are two fundamental problems. In the technician reference frame, his productivity has suddenly and discontinuously fallen to zero, as he sits…

Economic rationalism, globalism, etc have always justified that by saying the net productivity in society has increased, so the technician can be taken care of (or at worst, is collateral damage in service of the greater good).

The problem is they don't account for other damage caused by that. People get a sense of purpose from work, many would actually rather work than get a welfare check. Communities are built around industries. Uncertainty and changing circumstances can have big impacts on people, more than can just be measured by subtracting their income from some balance sheet.

Re: The Frustration with Productivity Culture

#44

Post by knowledge-clay » Wed, Sep 15, 2021, 2:11 AM UTC

gandalfgeek wrote: post #19

The problem with "productivity gurus" is that not one of them actually has any accomplishments in an actual specialized domain (other than marketing their stuff). Conversely, as I look at all the accomplished people around me, they've quietly built a mountain of expertise and achievement with cobbled systems held together by spit and glue that a productivity hustler would scoff at.

A great book about this topic is "Daily Rituals: How Artists Work" -- which covers the routines of actual artists and thinkers, with their wild, idiosyncratic inconsistency: from waking up hungover most days and only writing when they feel "inspired" to working 3 hours a day and spending most of the day walking and "lounging" to the strict, regimented routines in the style of productivity gurus

Re: The Frustration with Productivity Culture

#45

Post by BeetleB » Wed, Sep 15, 2021, 2:25 AM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #16

The problem with the entire productivity culture is just how industrialized, bureaucratic and formulaic it is. You read the piece by Newport and there is Henry Ford, the assembly line, 'knowledge work', growth, and so on. Words that don't show up once: freedom, exploration, curiosity, creativity (that does show up once in quotes technically). Everything that makes life interesting is discontinuous and surprising and…

I understand your frustration, but your comment is a bit off the mark.

> Yet he also made contributions larger than anyone will ever do by filling up note-taking apps and tracking how much time they spent on their breakfast with a stopwatch.

I really doubt Cal Newport would recommend this.

> Words that don't show up once: freedom, exploration, curiosity, creativity

Pretty sure Cal discusses these often - some in a positive manner and some in a disparaging manner.

Re: The Frustration with Productivity Culture

#46

Post by France_is_bacon » Wed, Sep 15, 2021, 2:42 AM UTC

jh0486 wrote: post #9

It's easy to have the wrong mindset around productivity. If an individual thinks that doing more always leads to better results, they're going to have a bad time. I use productivity as a tool to have __more__ personal time and reduce stress. I really think about what I'm doing and what impact it has on my day. From what I've seen, working in large corporate environments, is that people make their own productivity pri…

Yes, this is the answer. I never work more than the allotted time. I work a 9-5 and that is that. I've never had any pushback, not even once.

I believe in managing up, and if some manager said to me to stay late, I would tell them that sure, I'll stay 2 hours later...do they have $120 in their wallet to give me right now? I'm sure you can put it into an expense report and get it reimbursed. I say it in a joking way, a roundabout way of saying f-ck you, I'm not working late. But they will get my point and not ask me again.

I'm not saying that I NEVER wouldn't work late, but maybe only in dire circumstances.

Or, as the saying goes, a lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.

And, I don't even care if it was a mid six figure amount. I'd probably be more open to working late and putting in more hours, but I'm not going to do it for no reason.

Re: The Frustration with Productivity Culture

#47

Post by dasil003 » Wed, Sep 15, 2021, 2:54 AM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #39

weq wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kings and queeens have turned into the captailists and relgious zealots who espouse ideals of productivity and growth in order to secure your obedience and trap you in debt and gives you no choice but to continue on or give up everything. By chasing the money you commit yourself playing within the confines of this system. I instead chase my passion and ive found an employeer who is happy to make those same tradeo…

> Ive switched markets/verticals from gov to private to startups in search of this balance. Am I understanding correctly that you switched to startups to find better work/life balance? I have to say I'm surprised by that. Usually startups have the highest demands and the fewest people to get things done. Can you expand on your experience?

There are a lot more variety of startups than there are big companies. If you're thinking of late-stage VC-driven companies who work hard to maintain the label of "startup" to perpetrate the mythology of rocket-ship riches that their ivy league hiring funnel relies on, then yeah, it's gonna be stressful. On the other hand, if you're willing to take less money for the ability to work with tighter constraints, less resources and more creativity then it's not too hard to find a company willing to accommodate you, especially if your talent level is validated by a big tech name brand on your resume (not saying it's the best signal, but hiring manager psychology is what it is).

Re: The Frustration with Productivity Culture

#48

Post by perl4ever » Wed, Sep 15, 2021, 2:59 AM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #16

The problem with the entire productivity culture is just how industrialized, bureaucratic and formulaic it is. You read the piece by Newport and there is Henry Ford, the assembly line, 'knowledge work', growth, and so on. Words that don't show up once: freedom, exploration, curiosity, creativity (that does show up once in quotes technically). Everything that makes life interesting is discontinuous and surprising and…

>he was batshit insane and probably a failure by the standards of modern productivity gurus

Newton was notoriously involved with the Royal Mint (for decades, I think) and efforts to maintain sound coinage, and it's conspicuously left out of your list of odd things he did.

It isn't exactly about "productivity", but your overall tone seems like you're presenting him as unsullied by capitalism, finance, "bean counters", and other mundane things.

https://blog.sciencemuseum.org.uk/isaac-newton-and-the-royal...

Actually, reading some of this sounds like Newton may have had some good insights into management for productivity:

"he encouraged the Mint’s engravers who were responsible for engraving coin designs on to the master punches (the tools used to make the coins) to take on private work outside of their contracted working hours. Newton recognised that this would enable them to improve their skills, making their engraved designs of a much higher quality and thus more difficult to replicate by the counterfeiters."

I think you could spin him as an icon of productivity, an early forerunner, if you so desired.

Re: The Frustration with Productivity Culture

#49

Post by dasil003 » Wed, Sep 15, 2021, 3:00 AM UTC

abnry wrote: post #30

Barrin92 wrote: post #16

The problem with the entire productivity culture is just how industrialized, bureaucratic and formulaic it is. You read the piece by Newport and there is Henry Ford, the assembly line, 'knowledge work', growth, and so on. Words that don't show up once: freedom, exploration, curiosity, creativity (that does show up once in quotes technically). Everything that makes life interesting is discontinuous and surprising and…

> Yet he also made contributions larger than anyone will ever do by filling up note-taking apps and tracking how much time they spent on their breakfast with a stopwatch. Part of the problem is that both the low hanging fruit has already been picked and the competition is steeper due to a wealthier society. If you can't make a societal impact the magnitude of calculus, why not time your breakfast so that the marginal…

The idea that only "big" impact is worthwhile is a huge part of the problem. Software and the global internet has made it possible to scale everything at ridiculous speed with tiny overhead. This has set the standard for success very high, but has some perverse effects. For instance, smart people flocking to finance and ad-tech because it's easier to make money there simply by proximity and complexity to mask what you're doing.

I'd argue we need a fundamental shift in our economy and regulation to incentivize diversity.

Re: The Frustration with Productivity Culture

#50

Post by d3nj4l » Wed, Sep 15, 2021, 3:00 AM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #39

weq wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kings and queeens have turned into the captailists and relgious zealots who espouse ideals of productivity and growth in order to secure your obedience and trap you in debt and gives you no choice but to continue on or give up everything. By chasing the money you commit yourself playing within the confines of this system. I instead chase my passion and ive found an employeer who is happy to make those same tradeo…

> Ive switched markets/verticals from gov to private to startups in search of this balance. Am I understanding correctly that you switched to startups to find better work/life balance? I have to say I'm surprised by that. Usually startups have the highest demands and the fewest people to get things done. Can you expand on your experience?

That's a sort of outdated view on startups IME. Unless you're talking about the FAANG types (which, IMO, shouldn't be called startups anymore) I've found that many small startups are embracing a healthy work-life balance. I switched from a small startup working on an early-stage SaaS to a mature big tech company and my wlb got worse.

I think the reason is that small startups can't always compete on salaries, so they have to make up for it by giving you something else in return. The market is full of extremely talented people leaving big tech because they're unhappy with the wlb, or want full-time remote or so on, so it turns out to be a win-win for startups and engineers. Big Tech will continue to get meat for the grinder by their sheer reputation, so they can expect you to dedicate your life to them if you want to stay.