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Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

smithsonianmag.com

41–50 of 428 posts

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#41
post #22
post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

To me this is an example of 3 negative features of free markets, exacerbated by a kyriarchic system, but I think it's fixable with work. The three issues I see: One, the short-term market incentive was for them to have something patentable and controllable. Two, the money accrued to them but the harms fell to others, creating a huge negative externality. And three, free markets in goods tend to create markets in poli…

> Politicians live on fixed budgets, any private wealth is put in index funds

I like where you are going with all this, but I'll nitpick here that while tying politicians' wealth to the overall stock market in general reduces their incentive to legislate in favor of particular companies, it does provide them incentive to legislate in favor of corporate America in general. We don't need laws that help stock market participants. ~50% of Americans don't hold stock in any form, even through mutual funds or retirement accounts.

I don't know what the solution is. As long as rule making can disproportionately affect the rule maker's own personal wealth and wellbeing, you have a conflict of interest.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#42
post #38
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those problems were solved for cars, they can be solved for planes. We shouldn't use it. Bioaccumulation of heavy metals was understood very early. Everything has a cost, spraying lead everywhere should be higher than what we are willing to pay. I am guessing it's still allowed because people who fly planes can afford to lobby. I was astounded to find TEL was still allowed in aviation fuels. Rates of cancers etc are…

Military planes just kerosene/JP-8 which contains no lead as far as I know.

The fuel itself is toxic to the environment and animals. The fuels can have really harsh things in them like benzene, iirc.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#43
post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

How much money did GM make off of cars versus leaded gasoline. That seems like a silly theory.

Sometimes giving away an invention for free (or finding a non-patentable alternative) makes you more money because it’s not a barrier to adoption.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#44
post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

I am not sure it should be formulated as market vs. government. The general public can be quite short sighted too. Also, marketing can be used on the general public.

What I think would be improvements are protections to free speech. More specifically, removal of any obstacle to free speech. The next thing, and in line with this is very generous protections to whistle blowing. There could be a yearly award with elections by the public that chooses the whistle blower of the year. The price money should be enough to live on for some tens of years at the least, perhaps even for life. Also, winning the price should make a person immune to lawsuits related to the issue that the whistle blowing was about.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#45
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me this is an example of 3 negative features of free markets, exacerbated by a kyriarchic system, but I think it's fixable with work. The three issues I see: One, the short-term market incentive was for them to have something patentable and controllable. Two, the money accrued to them but the harms fell to others, creating a huge negative externality. And three, free markets in goods tend to create markets in poli…

> Politicians live on fixed budgets, any private wealth is put in index funds I like where you are going with all this, but I'll nitpick here that while tying politicians' wealth to the overall stock market in general reduces their incentive to legislate in favor of particular companies, it does provide them incentive to legislate in favor of corporate America in general. We don't need laws that help stock market par…

Good point. I'd be happy with any sort of blind trust where it's reasonably correlated with overall economic health.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#46
post #3

I've got a sneaking suspicion we ought to go through everything else Thomas MIdgley Jr. invented and ban it, just to be sure. Leaded gas, CFCs, and the contraption he killed himself with is a worrying pattern. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr .

Says the internet warrior who has invented nothing.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#47
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has two radically different concepts of freedom that travel under the same name. Both start with "I should be free to do as I want". One ends with "as long as I don't harm others". The other ends with "regardless of harm to others". You were dealing with the latter. It of course sounds insane when you say it baldly like this, which is why it rarely gets stated openly. But a lot of traditional societal structu…

The complexity is in proving what harm is being done and to whom.

Not generally. It mainly gets complex when the latter side wants to deny the harm. Then it's an ocean of motivated reasoning and endless arguments. We still have people arguing today that American slavery was good for the slaves.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#48
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Politicians live on fixed budgets, any private wealth is put in index funds I like where you are going with all this, but I'll nitpick here that while tying politicians' wealth to the overall stock market in general reduces their incentive to legislate in favor of particular companies, it does provide them incentive to legislate in favor of corporate America in general. We don't need laws that help stock market par…

Good point. I'd be happy with any sort of blind trust where it's reasonably correlated with overall economic health.

>correlated with overall economic health.

How is this measured?

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#49
post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

If I get you right you're disappointed that free markets didn't lead to 100% efficiency. IMO the simple truth is that nothing will be perfect and there's always strange patterns emerging from the chaos. It's almost like entropy to me.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#50
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change I'm with you here - especially including the observation that it was the non-free market force ("It couldn’t be patented") that skewed the choice in favor of the inferior, poisonous option. Side note, besides its anti-knock properties, the lead also had protective effect on the valves - with early metallurgy, the high temperature gasses wo…

> It is a concern with older vehicles This hasn't been true since about 1970, and even then, it was dubious.

That only applies to car engines; aviation piston engines evolve much slower and commonly required leaded gasoline til recently - specifically for the lead content, beyond the anti-knock properties. Most common avgas is 100LL, with significant (if reduced) lead content.

Cf. >Lycoming provides a list of engines and fuels that are compatible with them. According to their August 2017 chart, a number of their engines are compatible with unleaded fuel.

>However, all of their engines require that an oil additive be used when unleaded fuel is used: "When using the unleaded fuels identified in Table 1, Lycoming oil additive P/N LW-16702, or an equivalent finished product such as Aeroshell 15W-50, must be used."*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas

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