Hustle culture is not toxic • Hacker News Board

Re: Hustle culture is not toxic

#41

Post by hellisothers » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:10 AM UTC

fragmede wrote: post #34

cmckn wrote: post #6

I believe the author has missed the point here. The conversation is not that “working hard is a bad thing”. “Hustle culture” is about making character judgements based on how many “hustles” one has going on at any given time. That is, if you aren’t killing yourself trying, then you aren’t trying. This is obviously awful and not a culture I want to live in. I’m happy that the author is having fun with their business,…

Colloquially, hustle isn't rigorously defined. The things you say are reprehensible, are (imo). However, where a person's primary job doesn't pay well enough, and won't provide future financial security, hustle (defined here as having any second job) is entirely necessary for many Americans, not just for a hypothetical future passive income stream, but also in order to make rent and other basic necessities.

Aren’t these hustles the same thing? One is a boss manipulating others to work harder so they (the boss) can exploit the workers output. The other is (sorry to beat a dead horse) capitalism (late or otherwise) exploiting workers to the same end?

Re: Hustle culture is not toxic

#42

Post by satisfice » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:14 AM UTC

The dynamic on Twitter typically goes like this: Someone tells a story about working long hours for a satisfying result; then someone else clucks about that not being “healthy.”

The cluckers are wrong. They are also stupid (defined as deliberately refusing to use their brains).

The issue is NEVER about how hard you work. It is always about agency and meaning. So if you don’t want to look like and sound like and be an idiot, don’t judge the health of an operation merely by some arbitrary rubric about hours and sleep. Find out who is choosing this, and why.

I run my own business, with my wife. For 22 years it has consumed our lives. We’re okay. We take breaks along the way. Shut up, nanny bot assholes.

Re: Hustle culture is not toxic

#43

Post by satisfice » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:15 AM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #2

> I derive happiness from working towards an enormous goal. Why an “enormous” goal? Does that come from a place of hubris. Do you push other people towards your enormous goal even at the cost of relationships and health? And how much does you “enormous” goal actually benefit society?

so fucking what?

Re: Hustle culture is not toxic

#44

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:42 AM UTC

AmericanChopper wrote: post #29

cmckn wrote: post #6

I believe the author has missed the point here. The conversation is not that “working hard is a bad thing”. “Hustle culture” is about making character judgements based on how many “hustles” one has going on at any given time. That is, if you aren’t killing yourself trying, then you aren’t trying. This is obviously awful and not a culture I want to live in. I’m happy that the author is having fun with their business,…

Well, you seem to be rather obviously making a character judgement here. Choosing to value something doesn’t imply a value judgement is being made on all other things of potential value. It certainly doesn’t imply that all other potential values are lesser. Describing the values of others as being for certain gross is most definitely judging them as lesser.

[deleted]

Re: Hustle culture is not toxic

#45

Post by bb88 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 4:59 AM UTC

hellisothers wrote: post #41

fragmede wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Colloquially, hustle isn't rigorously defined. The things you say are reprehensible, are (imo). However, where a person's primary job doesn't pay well enough, and won't provide future financial security, hustle (defined here as having any second job) is entirely necessary for many Americans, not just for a hypothetical future passive income stream, but also in order to make rent and other basic necessities.

Aren’t these hustles the same thing? One is a boss manipulating others to work harder so they (the boss) can exploit the workers output. The other is (sorry to beat a dead horse) capitalism (late or otherwise) exploiting workers to the same end?

If you are "hustling" you are risking time and/or money for potential reward -- you're in control of what you're doing and could shift what you're doing in a heartbeat.

On the other hand if you've lost the locus of control, you're being "hustled".

E.g. I wouldn't say that taking a part time night shift at McDonald's to make ends meet is "hustling". It's possible the extra shift is needed because the landlord is greedy and keeps raising the rent by the maximum allowable by law.

Re: Hustle culture is not toxic

#46

Post by georgewsinger » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 5:32 AM UTC

Another anecdote: I've kept meticulous data on my own productivity for years, which has allowed me to run self-tests on the effects of sleep, exercise, substances, etc.

One thing I've consistently found is that the harder and longer I work, the more I get done -- without bound, and without burnout rebounds. It's just all shockingly linear.

It doesn't feel linear: the difference between working 12 hours versus 14 hours in 1 day can be excruciating. But when I step back and look at the graph over longer time spans, the "time spent" vs "how much I got done" relationship appears to be pretty consistent.

TLDR: I've personally convinced myself that "hustle culture" works for me.

Re: Hustle culture is not toxic

#47

Post by yellowapple » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 9:59 AM UTC

It's one thing when your hustling is primarily to your own benefit. It's another thing when your hustling is primarily benefiting someone else. It's the latter that's arguably the source of hustle culture's toxicity.

Re: Hustle culture is not toxic

#48

Post by aaron695 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 10:19 AM UTC

cmckn wrote: post #6

I believe the author has missed the point here. The conversation is not that “working hard is a bad thing”. “Hustle culture” is about making character judgements based on how many “hustles” one has going on at any given time. That is, if you aren’t killing yourself trying, then you aren’t trying. This is obviously awful and not a culture I want to live in. I’m happy that the author is having fun with their business,…

This is not what the author has said.

He is against the twitter attacks on “Hustle culture”. He is not against people warning it's not for everyone. He is not against people giving alternatives. He is against people calling it toxic and degrading people who are into “Hustle culture”, often these people degrade others for their own personal enjoyment, see Twitter -

https://twitter.com/search?q=hustle%20culture&src=typed_quer...

> That is, if you aren’t killing yourself trying, then you aren’t trying. This is obviously awful and not a culture I want to live in. I

This is not "obviously awful"

Having kids kills people (In the same non literal sense). Is it "obviously awful"? There are good arguments against, but it's not "obviously awful" and it's close to implying the people who do this stuff are awful.