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Bare metal Apple M1 Debian at 4K 60

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Re: Bare metal Apple M1 Debian at 4K 60

#42

... Speaking of which, what does the M1 mean for the Hackintosh?

The Hackintosh seems likely to die once Apple stops releasing new macOS updates with x86 support (which is probably at least 5 years out, hopefully). Unlike x86 Macs, ARM Macs have nonstandard customizations in the CPU, making running macOS on any other ARM CPU quite impractical without deep hacks. ARM macOS also does not support anything but Apple GPUs (and requires a GPU). That said, we know at least the VMkernel i…

> making running macOS on any other ARM CPU quite impractical without deep hacks

Presuming those other 2025-era ARM CPUs have standardized virtualization extensions, macOS would probably be best run through a hardware-accelerated hybrid emulator that interprets, rather than executes, the non-supported instructions. (Think Linux-aarch64 running qemu-kvm.)

“Hackintoshing” in the sense of needing to write macOS drivers for Apple-unsupported hardware/peripherals would still exist in that world, as people would want to pass hardware (like the GPU!) through to the VM for performance. Though the construction of these drivers might be easier than today, as for peripherals that are just too hard to get macOS itself to support, hardware-abstracted peripheral drivers could be written instead (or even reused from VM software like VMWare Fusion!)

Re: Bare metal Apple M1 Debian at 4K 60

#43
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also another factor for some of us... Although practically I am interested in running Linux on an appleM1, my conscious will no longer allow me to fund the company producing it, so I can never own one.

Isn't that a bit extreme? What is Apple doing that is so morally wrong that you can't give them money for a quality product?

Having thought through this extensively in my trip off Apple products:

- They have doubled down on "build it in China" for everything, including labor practices that are... not ideal, at a minimum. "Dying for an iPhone" details their last decade or so of labor abuses, or at least "looking the other way while China abuses labor for them."

- As a result of that, and their desire to sell into the Chinese market, they have bowed before the CCP regarding data storage, encryption, etc. For a company that has held a hard line regarding privacy of user information, to see them bow to a rather hostile government like that is very concerning.

- The on-device CSAM scanning, similarly, reflects what can most reasonably be described as "bowing to another government." I know the tech news has abandoned that bit of bad news, forgotten, and moved on to satellite phone stuff, but I consider it turning my own device and resources against me in ways I cannot support.

In the past year or so, Apple has demonstrated that they say one thing out one side of their mouth ("Privacy! Your data is your data! Ethical labor!") while doing other things in practice. So, I'm no longer comfortable supporting them, and am trying not to.

I'm aware that most of this can be applied to the bulk of the consumer tech industry at large, which is another problem, and one I'm certainly trying to ponder through. The main conclusion, I think, is that one ought not buy any new/recent hardware, and figure out ways to work with less. I've been moving over to small ARM computers as I try to find less-hostile devices, but the supply chains upstream there are less-known and a bit of a mystery, so I'm not sure I can make strong claims one way or another. However, I know at this point that Apple hasn't gone about really improving things, instead just looking the other way as Foxconn continues the same tricks.

It's perfectly fine to not care about any of that, and prefer the shiny integrated computer, and I've certainly done that for the past 18 years of my life. But I'm no longer OK with that, and am trying to get clear of it.

Re: Bare metal Apple M1 Debian at 4K 60

#44

It always impresses the hell out of me when I see side projects like this project that I couldn’t do myself. On the economic/$$ perspective: the Linux in M1 projects are probably targeted at Mac Minis and given that when you pay for a Mac Mini you are paying for hardware and Apple software. Does this make sense economically, comparing other bare bone systems with a Mac Mini style form factor?

The RPi4 and new Pine64 Quartz64 can both have 8GB of RAM, the M1 is faster though.

Re: Bare metal Apple M1 Debian at 4K 60

#45
post #28
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good planning ahead for when Apple no longer supports perfectly fine old-ish machines. Both my mother and wife are now using Linux not because their computers broke but because Apple gave up on them.

How old are their machines? Apple's next MacOS version supports MacBooks Pros going back to 2015. Seven years is a pretty long support cycle.

Oh my, the mobile market really skewed our perception of reasonable support cycle. What a crazy world where 7 years is a “pretty long support cycle” for personal computers.

I have money to spend on computers but I still use a 10 years old laptop running windows and Linux (both supported) and with absolutely no desire to upgrade it as it runs better than when I bought it (after a ssd swap and more memory). There’s nothing that I do on my personal computer that would be improved by purchasing a new machine. Same goes with most people I know.

Re: Bare metal Apple M1 Debian at 4K 60

#46
I don't usually like to be the one complaining about how bad Twitter is for quality tech threads like this. But wow, it seems you can no longer view any of the pictures or the rest of the thread without a Twitter account.

Re: Bare metal Apple M1 Debian at 4K 60

#47
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Hackintosh seems likely to die once Apple stops releasing new macOS updates with x86 support (which is probably at least 5 years out, hopefully). Unlike x86 Macs, ARM Macs have nonstandard customizations in the CPU, making running macOS on any other ARM CPU quite impractical without deep hacks. ARM macOS also does not support anything but Apple GPUs (and requires a GPU). That said, we know at least the VMkernel i…

> making running macOS on any other ARM CPU quite impractical without deep hacks Presuming those other 2025-era ARM CPUs have standardized virtualization extensions, macOS would probably be best run through a hardware-accelerated hybrid emulator that interprets, rather than executes, the non-supported instructions. (Think Linux-aarch64 running qemu-kvm.) “Hackintoshing” in the sense of needing to write macOS drivers…

> interprets, rather than executes, the non-supported instructions.

If only ARM virtualization could do that - it would've made my life much easier when writing the m1n1 hypervisor.

There is no facility for intercepting and trapping unsupported instructions in EL0/1 into EL2. The undefined instruction exception goes straight to the guest. I had to hijack this for early bringup debugging and ended up patching the guest's exception table, but needless to say that isn't terribly nice...

ARM macOS requires a GPU (WindowServer won't run without one), which means supporting Metal. So not only do you need to write a GPU driver, you need to write a GPU driver that supports Metal. Apple support paravirtualized GPUs... by passing through Metal, as I understand it. That's only easy if your host OS is macOS.

Re: Bare metal Apple M1 Debian at 4K 60

#48
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How old are their machines? Apple's next MacOS version supports MacBooks Pros going back to 2015. Seven years is a pretty long support cycle.

Is it? Windows has always had an extended support life cycle if ten years, and Windows 11 is heavily criticised for their new restrictions on hardware. I've seen Windows 10 run just fine on budget devices that go further back than that. You can get the most recent Ubuntu LTS to run on a ten year old Thinkpad without issue. The performance may be limited bytthe hardware, but the software isn't the problem here. Honest…

It's ridiculous how people downvote this and support apple and other corps rendering otherwise fine hardware into waste

Re: Bare metal Apple M1 Debian at 4K 60

#49
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not get the Air? Are you optimistic that the touchbar will be fully supported?

Because I stupidly forget that something as stupid as a touchbar was created in the first place. Perhaps it'll be the Air in that case. Edit: worth noting that the Air is more likely to thermal throttle the Pro, which would be a major reason to go for the Pro. I support it'll be alright if it's mostly connected to a keyboard.

Rumors are that the touchbar is going away with the next generation of MBP anyways, so it may not matter.

As for thermal throttle on the Air, you can spend $10 and 10 minutes installing thermal pads to bridge the CPU and the aluminum backplate. This will cause the backplate to heat up more, but nearly eliminates any thermal throttling even under sustained load.

Re: Bare metal Apple M1 Debian at 4K 60

#50
post #28
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good planning ahead for when Apple no longer supports perfectly fine old-ish machines. Both my mother and wife are now using Linux not because their computers broke but because Apple gave up on them.

How old are their machines? Apple's next MacOS version supports MacBooks Pros going back to 2015. Seven years is a pretty long support cycle.

I'm still on Ivy Bridge (2012) and it works just fine with the latest & greatest Linux software.
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