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Goodbye climate deniers, hello climate bullshitters

theguardian.com

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Re: Goodbye climate deniers, hello climate bullshitters

#41

Post by orwin »

lozenge wrote: post #28
sleavey wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good question, I don't know the answer to that. One thing to include though is transmission loss to get the electricity to the place it's needed. And at the same time of course include the energy used to get petrol to a gas guzzling car. In other words, the comparison needs to be fair, and that doesn't sound like an easy analysis. I'd be interested to hear from anyone that knows more about this.

The car engine has to fit a weight and size limit that means most of the heat is wasted instead of harnessed. Power plants can capture 60% of the heat energy. http://needtoknow.nas.edu/energy/energy-sources/fossil-fuels... Conventional cars capture 12-30% of the energy in the fuel. https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml#:~:text=Energy%... . The difference is big enough that the analysis is easy.

You're absolutelly right, just a small caveat for the 60% figure: most well-maintained plants capture between 35% and 40% of heat energy. Peakers can reach 35% too. Pulsed coal and new gas tech can get to 50-60% in ideal conditions. Also, most of these techs are new and are available on recently-build plants. That 60% could be as low as 45%.

Still at least twice as effective as ICEs.

However, a 2-tons electric car compared to a 800kg ICE? without taking into consideration the wear on infrastructure and on singular parts of the vehicle, i still think you are in comparable zone.

Re: Goodbye climate deniers, hello climate bullshitters

#42

Post by rcxdude »

sleavey wrote: post #3

I enjoyed hearing electric cars called "external combustion engines" given that in most countries (at least mine) the electricity used to charge the car still mostly comes from fossil fuel. In such cases all we're doing is adding an extra lossy conversion between chemical and kinetic energy, potentially making it worse. Yet people buy such cars and feel great about themselves. I am reminded of the South Park episode…

I would change "potentially" to "doesn't". It's often touted but the numbers really don't support it in basically any country.

Re: Goodbye climate deniers, hello climate bullshitters

#44

Post by ljm »

vanderZwan wrote: post #34
js8 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth is, when it comes to negative externalities (like CO2, for instance), government just loves to give out subsidies rather than to create taxes. In economic theory, taxes (which can be then refunded to citizens as dividends), not subsidies (which require to leave the decision on the government instead of free market), are the correct solution to the externality problem. But in practice, regulatory capture and…

> government just loves to give out subsidies rather than to create taxes. Doesn't take a expert to see why "we give you freebies if you do this" is an easier political sell than "we punish you if you keep doing that" . So much of modern politics is based on risk management to the point of cowardice, including upsetting potential voters.

The problem with a negative incentive is that saying "don't do X" doesn't mean "actually do intended alternative Y instead."

Example: Volkswagen faking emissions tests.

And at least if someone cheats their way to a subsidy a government will probably have an easier time pursuing a case for fraud than they would for tax evasion or whatever.

Re: Goodbye climate deniers, hello climate bullshitters

#46

Post by vanderZwan »

ljm wrote: post #44
vanderZwan wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> government just loves to give out subsidies rather than to create taxes. Doesn't take a expert to see why "we give you freebies if you do this" is an easier political sell than "we punish you if you keep doing that" . So much of modern politics is based on risk management to the point of cowardice, including upsetting potential voters.

The problem with a negative incentive is that saying "don't do X" doesn't mean "actually do intended alternative Y instead." Example: Volkswagen faking emissions tests. And at least if someone cheats their way to a subsidy a government will probably have an easier time pursuing a case for fraud than they would for tax evasion or whatever.

The example I gave is entirely legal as far as I understand, that was my point: there are gaint gaping holes in the regulations to exploit for people who don't actually care about the environment and only wish to maximize their profits.

Re: Goodbye climate deniers, hello climate bullshitters

#47

Post by garyrichardson »

jayd16 wrote: post #9

The bullshit is double dipped as well. You can push bullshit policy and then you can push FUD againts good policy by claiming its just greenwashing. It happens in every corner of politics but its pretty frustrating none the less.

At least the article doesn’t raise the “ev’s charged by coal plants” trope. All the ones mentioned seem to check out as spin IMO. Especially the examples I’m familiar with.

Re: Goodbye climate deniers, hello climate bullshitters

#48

Post by mepiethree »

zimpenfish wrote: post #39
sleavey wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually published a paper on your last point many years ago. To me it's obvious that we need to use electric car batteries as storage for the grid. The infrastructure is already there. The software in the car should allow the user to specify their preference for how full to keep the battery at all times, and when they next plan to drive far, and the car can decide how it gets its battery charge to the required lev…

> To me it's obvious that we need to use electric car batteries as storage for the grid. Like a Powerwall for your solar panels but using the car instead of the battery? That'd make good sense for places like the UK where there's currently no Powerwall equivalent (that I know of.)

Yep! Sunrun (largest residential solar company in the US) has partnered with Ford to make their new electric pickups into “power walls” in this way
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