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How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

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Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#41

I think the observation vs evaluation examples are sloppy (yes, that’s an evaluation). I understand this is not a general assessment of the value of observations over evaluations outside of the framework of NVC. Most of the examples would be perceived - at least by me - as impersonal and dishonest. Voicing observations such as “you were ten minutes late this morning” to someone who’s knowingly been late already befor…

Glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. While the article had good nuggets of information, I didn't find it credible enough for me to take a chance on applying in real life. Maybe it's the general negative tone.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#42
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're being needlessly downvoted. Sorry. > Voicing observations such as “you were ten minutes late this morning” to someone who’s knowingly been late already before could be easily perceived as passive aggressive. I can see your concern, because it's not clear from the article. It is passive aggressive if you leave it at that. NVC does not recommend leaving at that - you have to state all 3: Observation, Nee…

> You were ten minutes late this morning. I was annoyed at having to wait for you and lose productivity. Could you explain why you were late? Honestly, this sounds even worse to me than just the observation. IMO a good test is "Would I say this to my boss? If not, then probably I shouldn't say it at all.". I would not say this to my boss. Not even close. How about instead: "Hey, I noticed you were a little bit late,…

> "Hey, I noticed you were a little bit late, which is unusual for you. Is everything OK?"

"Yup."

> "Hey, I noticed you were a bit late in the last couple of meetings. I think it is somewhat important to be on time. Is there anything I can do to help you avoid being late next time?"

Below are very real (and somewhat common) responses I've seen to this type of question.

"Nope." (single word answer)

Also:

"I wasn't late" (person believes being up to 5 minutes late doesn't count as "late").

"We don't discuss anything important in this meeting."

"I have real work to do."

"I'm not needed in the meeting."

"You have plenty of topics you can discuss where I'm not needed. Just save the stuff you need me for till I arrive."

"No one's going to die if I'm a few minutes late."

Granted: Many of these responses would come with my phrasing as well :-)

I'm not opposed to your phrasing other than you never explained what the problem is with my being late. While it may be clear to many that you have a problem with being late, I assure you from experience that many (ordinary) people will not pick up on that. Why is being late a problem? Not in general, but for you and for this meeting.

You instead try to appeal to some kind of norm: "I think it's somewhat important to be on time." I can assure you many don't share that norm. Academic/tech/science people tend to avoid personalizing and prefer making statements that feel objective, like this one. I did this all the time, and it often led to arguments. This is one key thing I learned from all the books/courses I read/took on communications: Do personalize and do be specific. Don't invoke norms unless it's a company value without exceptions or your 100% sure the other party shares the norm. And don't make general statements.

I would take your statement and say it as:

"I noticed you were more than 5 minutes late in the last couple of meetings, and the meeting cannot proceed without you. It can be annoying for us to interrupt our work to attend the meeting and lose productivity while sitting and waiting. Would you be able to find a way to arrive on time? Is there anything I can do to help (e.g. change the meeting time to a more convenient one)?"

As for saying it to your boss: I have no problem saying it to mine. If my boss is consistently late and it affects my work, I do make sure to let him know. I've had to set up private meetings with my boss to let him know that his behavior in a working group meeting was causing problems. If you're not comfortable with these discussions with your boss, then I suggest you change your communication style or change your boss.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#43

(By the way, I’m writing this from a place of exhaustion and disappointment with the industry, rather than just knee jerk negativity.) Although I do think it’s worthwhile to try to think and communicate as clearly as possible, over the years I’ve learned in this industry that 90% or more of coworkers and managers are not going to put the same effort into it. You can do everything right and the majority of the time it…

> The only thing that (almost) guarantees good relationships with management is to just do whatever they want even when it is leading the company to ruin, never voice your objections, etc. This is correct but the implication is that a good career means having the courage to accept the risk of poor relationships with management and to be willing to end an unhealthy relationship.

While this is correct in theory, in practice there are many forms of golden handcuffs that make this a very painful option. In the final analysis, I think that many don't really care enough about the enterprise's overall success. My guess is that there are not that many well paying enterprises out there that are working on things that matter enough to care that much about...

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#44

These methods for NVC are useful because (a) they decouple analysis from emotions, and (b) they protect the target from feeling attacked, so it is possible for the target to receive the analysis instead of going into defensive mode. Daniel Dennett takes the paradigm further by adding a prequel, which is to clearly articulate the other person's logic and state of mind empathically first, before going into the analysis…

This in turn feels quite manipulative, though.

This is a very common dismissal in these circles (as referenced by many previous NVC and related HN discussions). I am saying the following to ask you to think a little more about this:

First off, "manipulative" is not an emotion. You could exchange "feels" with "seems" because language is important. It is not slightly ironic that programmer types can tend towards imprecise language when discussing EQ skills :-)

And sure, If by my words I am trying to avoid triggering your flight/flight/freeze response, I am technically "manipulating" you. In this context though, the manipulation is not obviously coming from a place of trying to get you to do something you don't intrinsically want to do (which is really the connotation you imply in your dismissal).

I had a coach teach me a valuable EQ skill that helps in these situations: You made up a story in your head that the speaker was trying to manipulate you into doing something that you didn't want to do. That's one story. Now come up with 5 more stories that could also be accurate. Sure, the 1st story could be the right assessment, but the other 5 have possibility as well. Why are you jumping on the 1st story as the only real one? By making that assumption, you have changed the energy of the whole exchange into a negative one unnecessarily.

Another perspective you could take when confronted with stilted language is that the person is trying (however ungracefully) to communicate with you in a way that shows they care about your emotional reaction. No matter the reason, it at least shows that they are taking your perspective into account, which is inherently better than not.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#45

(By the way, I’m writing this from a place of exhaustion and disappointment with the industry, rather than just knee jerk negativity.) Although I do think it’s worthwhile to try to think and communicate as clearly as possible, over the years I’ve learned in this industry that 90% or more of coworkers and managers are not going to put the same effort into it. You can do everything right and the majority of the time it…

> over the years I’ve learned in this industry that 90% or more of coworkers and managers are not going to put the same effort into it.

What's worse to me, is the never be provided, even at a later date. The request is ignored or forgotten about. But inevitably, we should press on making a decision on the unsubstantiated claim!)

And half the time, it feels like the unsubstantiated claim, even if true … literally wouldn't matter? Like, it's then applied in a non-sequitur argument of "unsubstantiated claim A, so we should do B" where there's no logical reasoning that A should lead to B.

Almost all of the time, the amount of words or text involved is just huge, like volumes and volumes of it, using terms that nobody else would use (because, IMO, they haven't taken the time to learn the systems we use…) and most of it, to my ear, sounds like bull. Just nonsense.

Direct questions are usually just ignored, so trying to just ask clarifying questions will get one nowhere. Even simple stuff, like yes/no inquiries, so stuff like "how much space does X require?" are again answered in paragraphs of meaningless gibberish.

That these individuals work in an engineering profession just even further boggles my mind. The most charitable view I feel like I can take is that they feel like I'm attacking them (by pointing out their position is bad) and it's one giant alpha-male fight after that, when really I just don't care about that? (at the end of the day, we could both get promoted? it's not like there's some limitation there) and really I'm just looking to get solid data to help make a good decision, and what I'm getting back just doesn't. make. sense.

It's so hard to describe in a HN comment, since these individuals are just so irrational from my point of view. Like, "fails the Turing test" … interactions seem more like a bad or aggressive Markov chain rather than a thinking person…

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#46
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You were ten minutes late this morning. I was annoyed at having to wait for you and lose productivity. Could you explain why you were late? Honestly, this sounds even worse to me than just the observation. IMO a good test is "Would I say this to my boss? If not, then probably I shouldn't say it at all.". I would not say this to my boss. Not even close. How about instead: "Hey, I noticed you were a little bit late,…

> "Hey, I noticed you were a little bit late, which is unusual for you. Is everything OK?" "Yup." > "Hey, I noticed you were a bit late in the last couple of meetings. I think it is somewhat important to be on time. Is there anything I can do to help you avoid being late next time?" Below are very real (and somewhat common) responses I've seen to this type of question. "Nope." (single word answer) Also: "I wasn't lat…

People are forgetting that this is a guide to difficult conversations, not a guide to all conversations pointing out a problem. Difficult conversations are occasionally necessary when all else fails.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#47
There's something odd about communicating feelings without the thoughts that gave rise to those feelings. It seems like the assumption is that the "observations" directly give rise to the "feelings", which I don't think is accurate. It's just leaving steps out, which is kind of not as candid and forthcoming as a difficult conversation should be IMO.

I think you should explain how the observation clashes with your expectations, so the person you're talking to isn't having to guess at that link between observation and feeling.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only thing that (almost) guarantees good relationships with management is to just do whatever they want even when it is leading the company to ruin, never voice your objections, etc. This is correct but the implication is that a good career means having the courage to accept the risk of poor relationships with management and to be willing to end an unhealthy relationship.

While this is correct in theory, in practice there are many forms of golden handcuffs that make this a very painful option. In the final analysis, I think that many don't really care enough about the enterprise's overall success. My guess is that there are not that many well paying enterprises out there that are working on things that matter enough to care that much about...

> a painful option

Yes.

> many don’t really care enough about the enterprise’s overall success

Or they are unwilling to do what’s necessary because it is very painful or scary and they are exhausted.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#50

(By the way, I’m writing this from a place of exhaustion and disappointment with the industry, rather than just knee jerk negativity.) Although I do think it’s worthwhile to try to think and communicate as clearly as possible, over the years I’ve learned in this industry that 90% or more of coworkers and managers are not going to put the same effort into it. You can do everything right and the majority of the time it…

> over the years I’ve learned in this industry that 90% or more of coworkers and managers are not going to put the same effort into it. What's worse to me, is the never be provided, even at a later date. The request is ignored or forgotten about. But inevitably, we should press on making a decision on the unsubstantiated claim!) And half the time, it feels like the unsubstantiated claim, even if true … literally woul…

This is similar to a frustrating pattern of my own behavior over last year. Would you like to know what is behind it?
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