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Why is it so hard to be rational?

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Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#41

Post by claudiawerner »

XorNot wrote: post #7
alecst wrote: post #4

It's really hard (for me, and I imagine, for everyone else) to not put myself into my views and opinions. Like, when someone shows me that I'm wrong, it's natural for me to feel attacked, instead of just taking it as a learning moment. Noticing when this happens and working with it has been my main struggle in learning how to be more rational. Those views and opinions really don't need to be a part of what I consider…

> Allowing multiple beliefs to overlap This doesn't seem very rational. If your beliefs are in conflict and you're content to not resolve that, then pretty much by definition you're accepting a logical inconsistency. If resolving the intersection doesn't lead to a new stable belief system, then aren't you basically going with "whatever I'm feeling that day"?

I've personally come to see this as a more complicated issue. Often, rational priorities contradict and overlap in scope - for example, discrepancies between moral reasoning and instrumental reasoning. Although I try to be reasonable about these, it's not always possible or preferable to side with one over the other.

However, the drive for total and pure consistency is also misguided in my judgement. One reason why we usually feel so motivated and conflicted (to the point where it can lead to depression) with inconsistency is the psychological effect of cognitive dissonance. It's not clear to me that the only way to quieten cognitive dissonance is to resolve the dissenting thoughts.

Another way is to accept that not everything needs to be resolved. This can be great for mental health - again, just in my experience. Don't let the (sometimes irrational) effects of cognitive dissonance override your decision making. Resolution can work, but so can acceptance.

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#42

Post by kirse »

lalaithion wrote: post #26
btilly wrote: post #14

I maintain that it isn't just hard, it is computationally impossible. We should all know that given a belief about the world, and evidence, Bayes' Theorem describes how to update our beliefs. But what if we have a network of interrelated beliefs? That's called a Bayesian net, and it turns out that Bayes' Theorem also prescribes a unique answer. However, unfortunately, it turns out that working out that answer is NP-h…

That's why it's called "less wrong". The goal isn't to be perfect, the goal is to do better. To be less wrong.

Which is ironic because the pursuit of knowledge only continues to increase the landscape of unknowns towards infinity - the branches of the tree of undiscovered and unknown knowledge continues to grow exponentially. It's as-if today we thought the choices were A or B, yet tomorrow we discover there was a C, and the next day D and so forth. If anything we are only discovering we are "more wrong" every day.

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#43

Post by someguy321 »

throwaway9690 wrote: post #30

I think part of the problem is that most people are conditioned into many beliefs from a young age I know a guy who hates foo (using a place holder). In fact he's downright foophobic. He is pretty convinced he has a natural unbiased hate of foo and is being rational when he expresses it. To me as an outsider it is pretty obvious that his hate of foo is the result of cultural conditioning. To him it is perfectly ratio…

Value judgements exist in a separate domain than pure rationality.

I like chocolate ice cream more than vanilla ice cream, and you're not gonna convince me otherwise by debating the flavor with me. It entirely could be the case that my preference is from cultural conditioning, but it's not my concern.

If your friend has a mindset of "to each his own" there's no problem.

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#44

Post by andi999 »

I believe it is also an evolutionary advantage. Let's assume with all information available it looks like the rational best decision to do something. Then unexpectedly that thing kills you. There is only a species left if not everybody did it.

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#45

Post by digitalsushi »

legrande wrote: post #25
jjbinx007 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Viruses. Virii isn't the plural of virus. There's a YouTube channel (1) called Street Epistemology which has a guy interview members of the public and ask them if they have a belief they hold to be true such as "the supernatural exists" or "climate change is real" or "x is better than y". He then asks them to estimate how certain they are that it's true. Then they talk. The interviewer asks a question and makes notes…

> Virii isn't the plural of virus. Thanks for correcting me. I will refrain from ever using virii again! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_of_virus

I knew what you meant. I feel like we almost have our own culture, sometimes. Weird.

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#46

Post by someguy321 »

kubb wrote: post #39
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #31

> In a recent interview, Cowen—a superhuman reader whose blog, Marginal Revolution, is a daily destination for info-hungry rationalists—told Ezra Klein that the rationality movement has adopted an “extremely culturally specific way of viewing the world.” It’s the culture, more or less, of winning arguments in Web forums. This matches my observations, too. > Cowen suggested that to understand reality you must not just…

One of my many pet peeves are people who travel to more than a 100 countries to get "experiences". It feels misguided, wasteful, excessive and done to impress others, as a sort of a status symbol. I bet he wouldn't be able to name all those countries and cities that he's been to. A deep and meaningful experience requires way more than a superficial visit.

I read that fellow's blog (marginalrevolution.com) and he goes out of the way to get the best authentic local food he can get, he's well read about the history of many different countries and the economic implications of the recent history (he's an academic economist). He often does a brief blog writeup about the particularly culturally unique bits of places after he visits. Part of his job as an academic/ popular econ culture writer is to understand cultures and economies around the world.

I don't mind if part of his motivation is to impress others, or if it's wasteful, etc. Why would his motivations have to be pure for it to be meaningful for him?

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#47

Post by WastingMyTime89 »

yann2 wrote: post #20
btilly wrote: post #14

I maintain that it isn't just hard, it is computationally impossible. We should all know that given a belief about the world, and evidence, Bayes' Theorem describes how to update our beliefs. But what if we have a network of interrelated beliefs? That's called a Bayesian net, and it turns out that Bayes' Theorem also prescribes a unique answer. However, unfortunately, it turns out that working out that answer is NP-h…

Correct. Rationality is Bounded. That fact won a Nobel Prize - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_A._Simon The recommendation of the theory is if you cant be rational about a specific problem pick another problem, preferably a simpler problem. Unfortunately lots of chimps in the troupe are incapable of doing that and therefore we shall always have drama.

> Correct. Rationality is Bounded. That fact won a Nobel Prize.

It's a model not a fact. As a model, it can't really be correct only more or less accurate.

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#48

Post by polote »

btilly wrote: post #14

I maintain that it isn't just hard, it is computationally impossible. We should all know that given a belief about the world, and evidence, Bayes' Theorem describes how to update our beliefs. But what if we have a network of interrelated beliefs? That's called a Bayesian net, and it turns out that Bayes' Theorem also prescribes a unique answer. However, unfortunately, it turns out that working out that answer is NP-h…

Well, it depends on the topic. Choosing rationally between the most green of two tomatoes is easy. You are limited by your ability to distinguish colors but you can still decide rationally.

Not all questions have answers, if you want to be rational when you are asked to answer those question, you can just say "I dont know"

At the beginning of the pandemic, when politics were saying mask dont work. You could just say, well, if we transmit covid by air, then putting something in front of my mouth is going to decrease the spread. That's what is being rational. Of course that's not going to be all the time the good answer, but you have still thought rationally.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to prove. Of curse being rational is possible. All people are rational for most of their decisions.

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#49

Post by chromaton »

cortesoft wrote: post #23
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree but I have to say this absolute reads like a voice-over from an Adam Curtis documentary.

I think part of it is a quote from Fight Club

Quote Investigator says it's from 1928 newspaper column: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/04/21/impress/

Re: Why is it so hard to be rational?

#50

Post by zentropia »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #16
SMAAART wrote: post #11

Nobody wants to deal with rational people. Big business want people to buy things they don't need, with money they don't have to impress people they don't like Politicians want people who will drink the cool-aid and follow what they (the politicians) say (and not what they do) Religions... well, same. And so all messages from advertisement, to movies, TV, narrative is about hijacking people's feelings and suppressing…

I don't disagree but I have to say this absolute reads like a voice-over from an Adam Curtis documentary.

Fight Club, bus scene
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