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What the interns have wrought, 2021 edition

blog.janestreet.com

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Re: What the interns have wrought, 2021 edition

#41

Post by throwaway6734 »

rauljara wrote: post #11
jon-wood wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re paying their interns how much ? Either finance pays way more than I thought, or that’s wildly off - for comparison as the most senior developer in our London based organisation, having been here since the beginning, I make about $11k a month.

Former Jane Streeter: yes, finance can pay very well. Of course there’s a lot of variance, but at least when I was there Jane Street made an effort to be the very highest in terms of compensation for interns. The numbers don’t seem off to me. Yes, I understand how ridiculous that is

what's ridiculous about it?

Re: What the interns have wrought, 2021 edition

#42

Post by mucle6 »

whatever1 wrote: post #36
Jorge1o1 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hit on so many great points in this post. Another important function trading firms (especially market makers like Jane Street) is to serve as ready-and-willing counterparties for the pension funds, endowments, and retirement funds of the world. All of those firefighters, police officers, and teachers can't get their monthly check unless the pension funds converts part of their investment into cash, and the amount…

No they are not. Wall street is a cancer for the economy that lives on fees for allowing people to participate in an elaborate gambling game. And due to their influence in US politics, they have forced everyone to play the game, under the false premise that the stocks will always go up. Except they are not, check the European stock market that has stagnated for decades. Companies can find investors without the stock…

   "Wall street is a cancer for the economy that lives on fees..."
You Should Look Into Low Cost Index Funds

   "...for allowing people to participate in an elaborate gambling game"
I believe if you invest in a market cap weighted U.S. stock market, there has never been a 20(?) year period where you lose money on your investment adjusting for inflation. I'm sure there is another number for the global market. I think it is disingenuous to call something with a positive expected return gambling.

   "...and due to their influence in US politics, they have forced everyone to play the game..."
This implies that having a market to buy and sell stocks is unstable and only being propped up by laws, but there are many stock markets around the world, so unless there is a large conspiracy to make investing inefficient through the use of large markets, I think we have to conclude that a stock market has some intrinsic value.

   "under the false premise that the stocks will always go up. Except they are not, check the European stock market that has stagnated for decades."
The only free lunch in investing is diversification. Don't invest in one company, sector, or country. And if you do, don't complain when it doesn't track the rest of the market.

   "Companies can find investors without the stock market."
Then why don't they? Aren't big bad companies only concerned with making more money? If finding investors without the stock market was more profitable, then wouldn't they?

   "Companies can pay dividends to their owners & employees. No need to have an additional speculation layer for fund raising and profit distribution."
This assumes that their owners and employees currently have enough money to collectively fund whatever venture they're working towards. To be honest I think you already know this but I'll bite. The world can be more efficient if we let people with money and no ideas give their money to people with ideas and no money.

Re: What the interns have wrought, 2021 edition

#43

Post by jollybean »

According to wikipedia they have only 1200 employees.

And 87 interns, that's quite a lot.

Given the level of granularity in that code, I can't imagine what they are all doing.

How do you have 87 people tweak a code-base and then just leave?

There's an incredible amount of sophistication in some of those project, surely they're not all used, but imagine the team you need just to maintain any of that. With only 1200 staffers, how many are in Development?

I think there must be a huge amount of surplus spend here. Basically, they are swimming in cash, hire the best interns, get a few nice things but mostly it's not that important. But if those marginal contributions eventually do provide a tiny bit of value the amount of leverage involved is so huge that it can make them a fortune.

Re: What the interns have wrought, 2021 edition

#44

Post by ghaff »

jollybean wrote: post #43

According to wikipedia they have only 1200 employees. And 87 interns, that's quite a lot. Given the level of granularity in that code, I can't imagine what they are all doing. How do you have 87 people tweak a code-base and then just leave? There's an incredible amount of sophistication in some of those project, surely they're not all used, but imagine the team you need just to maintain any of that. With only 1200 st…

Well, they're also effectively spending for an extended job interview.

Re: What the interns have wrought, 2021 edition

#45

Post by [deleted] »

jollybean wrote: post #43

According to wikipedia they have only 1200 employees. And 87 interns, that's quite a lot. Given the level of granularity in that code, I can't imagine what they are all doing. How do you have 87 people tweak a code-base and then just leave? There's an incredible amount of sophistication in some of those project, surely they're not all used, but imagine the team you need just to maintain any of that. With only 1200 st…

[deleted]

Re: What the interns have wrought, 2021 edition

#46

Post by jollybean »

Jorge1o1 wrote: post #25
Kranar wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you interested in a genuine discussion on this topic or have you already made up your mind? For those genuinely interested, for the most part trading firms employing quantitative and automated strategies look to keep the price of derivative or correlated assets in line with their underlying securities. For example a stock ABC might either directly or indirectly represent two other underlying stocks FOO1 and FOO2…

You hit on so many great points in this post. Another important function trading firms (especially market makers like Jane Street) is to serve as ready-and-willing counterparties for the pension funds, endowments, and retirement funds of the world. All of those firefighters, police officers, and teachers can't get their monthly check unless the pension funds converts part of their investment into cash, and the amount…

Just because financial firms provide legitimately important services, doesn't mean the value they capture is commensurate with that value creation.

So yes, it's a leap of abstraction for most people to grasp that 'market making' etc. is an important function, and that there's legit value created.

... but the amount of surplus capture is gigantic and that's the problem.

Fouquet became Louis IX 'CFO' and somehow at the same time amassed massive wealth possibly illegitimately and so he lost his head very quickly.

It's always the people closest to the piles of Gold that end up with all of the Gold. There are a million ways they justify it, and in free markets where information and relations are 'the power', well, they have it all.

Usually it's 'generally very talented' people involved, of that I have no doubt, but that again doesn't justify necessarily the surplus capture.

Re: What the interns have wrought, 2021 edition

#47

Post by asurne »

jollybean wrote: post #43

According to wikipedia they have only 1200 employees. And 87 interns, that's quite a lot. Given the level of granularity in that code, I can't imagine what they are all doing. How do you have 87 people tweak a code-base and then just leave? There's an incredible amount of sophistication in some of those project, surely they're not all used, but imagine the team you need just to maintain any of that. With only 1200 st…

I think at most top of line places, internships are viewed as a two way interview. Firms get to see how the intern performs over 8-12 weeks, and the intern gets to see company culture/fit for 8-12 weeks. The work the intern is doing isn't the goal of the internship.

Re: What the interns have wrought, 2021 edition

#48

Post by whatever1 »

mucle6 wrote: post #42
whatever1 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they are not. Wall street is a cancer for the economy that lives on fees for allowing people to participate in an elaborate gambling game. And due to their influence in US politics, they have forced everyone to play the game, under the false premise that the stocks will always go up. Except they are not, check the European stock market that has stagnated for decades. Companies can find investors without the stock…

"Wall street is a cancer for the economy that lives on fees..." You Should Look Into Low Cost Index Funds "...for allowing people to participate in an elaborate gambling game" I believe if you invest in a market cap weighted U.S. stock market, there has never been a 20(?) year period where you lose money on your investment adjusting for inflation. I'm sure there is another number for the global market. I think it is…

      "You Should Look Into Low Cost Index Funds"
- Not sure how this helps your argument. Low cost != zero cost.

      "I believe if you invest in a market cap weighted U.S. stock market, there has never been a 20(?) year period where you lose money on your investment adjusting for inflation. I'm sure there is another number for the global market. I think it is disingenuous to call something with a positive expected return gambling."
- In your own words "Don't invest in one company, sector, or country. And if you do, don't complain when it doesn't track the rest of the market." The probability that the US is the outlier is much higher compared to the cummulative stock performance of companies from 27 european nations being the outlier.

      "This implies that having a market to buy and sell stocks is unstable and only being propped up by laws, but there are many stock markets around the world, so unless there is a large conspiracy to make investing inefficient through the use of large markets, I think we have to conclude that a stock market has some intrinsic value."
- The value generated from stock market speculations in the EU the past 20 years is close to zero [1]. So I have to conclude that the stock market is really useless.

      "The only free lunch in investing is diversification. Don't invest in one company, sector, or country. And if you do, don't complain when it doesn't track the rest of the market."
- Or, don't speculate at all if you are not an expert and knowing that you are taking the risk of losing everything. No reason for the almost retired mom and pop to speculate on the value of my business. I am all in for long term investing (aka buy shares from the company). The buy-sell between stock holders - buyers needs to be heavily taxed due to the risk for the wider economy that these transactions can cause.

      "Then why don't they? Aren't big bad companies only concerned with making more money? If finding investors without the stock market was more profitable, then wouldn't they?"
- I made this year 200% from speculating on Bitcoin and 90% from speculating on the recovery of the US stock market. Of course everyone tries to benefit from the game, but the reality is that only the middlemen are making money from the transactions. For the rest of us it is a zero-sum game. Some poor folks on the other side had to pay for my gains.

      "This assumes that their owners and employees currently have enough money to collectively fund whatever venture they're working towards. To be honest I think you already know this but I'll bite. The world can be more efficient if we let people with money and no ideas give their money to people with ideas and no money."
- If only we had a solution to this! Oh I forgot, we have already a couple: 1) Banks and 2)"Issuing more shares". There is no benefit to the company when mucle6 sells their shares to whatever1 for 10 trillion dollars.

[1] https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/index/sxxp?CountryCode...

Re: What the interns have wrought, 2021 edition

#50

Post by exdsq »

jon-wood wrote: post #4
WJW wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like most companies, Jane Street also doesn't discuss pay. However, as we reported last year, pay for U.S. trading interns at Jane Street in 2020 was $14.5k a month, plus an extra $500 a week work from home stipend (making $16.5k as a monthly total) for. From https://www.efinancialcareers.com/news/finance/jane-street-p...

They’re paying their interns how much ? Either finance pays way more than I thought, or that’s wildly off - for comparison as the most senior developer in our London based organisation, having been here since the beginning, I make about $11k a month.

Jane Street pays a lot - I know of people who earned half a million a year when they worked there in their early 20s
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