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Major U.K. science funder to require grantees to make papers immediately free

sciencemag.org

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Re: Major U.K. science funder to require grantees to make papers immediately free

#41

In case someone has some direct knowledge or credible sources: I'm not sure what is stopping reform at a political level. Who is the political constituency that obstructs open access? The publishers seem too small, and the science and higher ed constituency too large.

I can't give you direct links, but I know that large scientific/engineering organisations have not been pushing for free open access. For example the IEEE has been part of an open letter (which included Elsivier) lobbying against Plan S. These organisations derive a lot of their money from publishing, so while many (most) of the members are strongly in favor of OA, the buerocratics in the organisations often are not. Which gives mixed messages to politicians.

On top of that I believe that non-scientific publishers have also been part of the lobby campaign as they see OA as weakening copyright.

Re: Major U.K. science funder to require grantees to make papers immediately free

#42
post #27

Can we get ISO to make all papers free next...? You know since moat industries need to abide by their standards but they refuse to freely make available these standards...

It might even be argued that the de facto mandatory nature of their standards constitute a form of (international) competitiveness, because their prices sure aren't just trivial to particularly smaller businesses.

Especially when you take into account that in other economies (outside the USA), their prices can be downright show-stoppers.

But then, it isn't particularly a new thing for larger economies to abuse standards and intellectual property regulations, to "compete" with smaller economies in ways that diametrically oppose the supposed (or at least often hailed) purpose and goals of both standards and intellectual property regulations.

Re: Major U.K. science funder to require grantees to make papers immediately free

#43
post #27

Can we get ISO to make all papers free next...? You know since moat industries need to abide by their standards but they refuse to freely make available these standards...

Yes!! Why do these things even cost money to begin with? It's like they want people to not follow the standards.

Re: Major U.K. science funder to require grantees to make papers immediately free

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All research and code posted on them gets a quick once-over; good work gets the attention it deserves; bad work is quickly ignored. What is the basis for all these claims? Who is giving it the quick once-over? Crowd-sourced review and information, despite some strengths and high initial hopes, has a record of extraordinary misinformation and disinformation. Why would we want to use that system for scientific resear…

> Who is giving it the quick once-over? arXiv has 200 expert moderators spread through different fields to filter out papers that are blatantly misleading, unoriginal, non-substantive, or in need of significant review and revision. It's not a peer-review, but it's not a complete free-for-all either.

Thanks! I will look that up (but if you happen to have any links ...).

Re: Major U.K. science funder to require grantees to make papers immediately free

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who is giving it the quick once-over? arXiv has 200 expert moderators spread through different fields to filter out papers that are blatantly misleading, unoriginal, non-substantive, or in need of significant review and revision. It's not a peer-review, but it's not a complete free-for-all either.

Thanks! I will look that up (but if you happen to have any links ...).

Here you go!

[1] https://arxiv.org/moderators/

[2] https://arxiv.org/help/moderation

Re: Major U.K. science funder to require grantees to make papers immediately free

#46

Reed Elsevier and the other rent seekers got no reason to live. That said: in the legal world, where PACER extracts $0.10 per "page" even now that you get things electronically and the cost is near zero: There's a service RECAP (PACER spelled backwards), where you can install a browser extension which automatically copies anything you download from PACER to a free archive. So one person pays, and the rest get it free…

Curious if the backup service is legal?

Re: Major U.K. science funder to require grantees to make papers immediately free

#47
post #46

Reed Elsevier and the other rent seekers got no reason to live. That said: in the legal world, where PACER extracts $0.10 per "page" even now that you get things electronically and the cost is near zero: There's a service RECAP (PACER spelled backwards), where you can install a browser extension which automatically copies anything you download from PACER to a free archive. So one person pays, and the rest get it free…

Curious if the backup service is legal?

It's been going on for years, I know that. I don't know if the rent-seekers have ever tried to shut it down. The fact that it's so complete tells me that a huge number of mainstream law firms look the other way when their employees use the browser extension.

Re: Major U.K. science funder to require grantees to make papers immediately free

#48
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious if the backup service is legal?

It's been going on for years, I know that. I don't know if the rent-seekers have ever tried to shut it down. The fact that it's so complete tells me that a huge number of mainstream law firms look the other way when their employees use the browser extension.

Lots of illicit things go on for years

Re: Major U.K. science funder to require grantees to make papers immediately free

#49

Reed Elsevier and the other rent seekers got no reason to live. That said: in the legal world, where PACER extracts $0.10 per "page" even now that you get things electronically and the cost is near zero: There's a service RECAP (PACER spelled backwards), where you can install a browser extension which automatically copies anything you download from PACER to a free archive. So one person pays, and the rest get it free…

> Reed Elsevier and the other rent seekers got no reason to live.

Listen to me, HN. Stop listening to this meme. You aren't using your brains.

Everyone has a hard-on for Elsevier, and no other publisher. Why is that? Because they don't know anything about publishing. They've just heard the name Elsevier (and it kind of looks evil) and so they just parrot it ad-nauseam. What about Springer? Taylor & Francis? Wiley-Blackwell? And what about the hundreds of smaller publishers that control major journals? Everyone gives Elsevier shit about suing Sci-Hub, but nobody gives the American Chemical Society shit for suing Sci-Hub. The fact is that people only hold up Elsevier as the great evil because people are tying to over-simplify a complex problem by finding a "single evil", because then they don't have to think about a more complex, nuanced problem.

The fact is that there is a reason that paid journals keep existing, and it's not the profit margins of the Big Four. It's the academic research industry. Every single academic research institute in the world that publishes papers depends on the reputation of journals. Getting your paper published in a "prestigious journal" is literally the only way to progress a researcher's career, and thus get more funding. Without funding, there is no research! And the journals are providing real due diligence happening in the process of creating those journals, and somebody has to pay for that process.

If the paid journals went away tomorrow, researchers would be fucked, and academic institutions would have no idea what to do with themselves. So please stop with this ridiculous meme that Elsevier is The Great Satan holding back science. Sure, they should profit a lot less! But getting rid of them entirely with no system to replace them will be destructive to scientific research.

Re: Major U.K. science funder to require grantees to make papers immediately free

#50

Reed Elsevier and the other rent seekers got no reason to live. That said: in the legal world, where PACER extracts $0.10 per "page" even now that you get things electronically and the cost is near zero: There's a service RECAP (PACER spelled backwards), where you can install a browser extension which automatically copies anything you download from PACER to a free archive. So one person pays, and the rest get it free…

Reading this comment, I assumed PACER was a private provider who sells access to otherwise freely available material which originally might be scattered and unorganised as government things usually are. Charging for access would therefore be reasonable.

But a quick search reveals that this is in fact a government-provided service. So your government charges you 10 cents per page to download PDFs from a glorified file server.

The US has around 1.5M people working in the legal field. Let's say each of them does 10 document lookups every day. 15 million requests in an 8 hour workday comes out to 500 requests per second. Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure a modern workstation could handle that, let alone a dedicated server or ever a few of them with good caching and client-side load balancing. SCOTUS spends 16M yearly just on building maintenance, I think it's safe to assume they can afford a handful of servers without having to resort to microtransactions...

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