Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship • Hacker News Board

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#41

Post by eatbitseveryday » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:03 PM UTC

syops wrote: post #29

altcognito wrote: post #2

They’ve been allowed for decades to avoid paying for the infrastructure and management of the country while simultaneously holding most of the influence. “Renouncing citizenship” means they’ll give up none of the influence, lose the taxes, live how and wherever they want. The best thing to do is forbid them re-entry into the country nor to hold controlling interest in any company in the US. Faced with actual conseque…

If a person has no income or capital gains from the U.S. and doesn’t live in the U.S. shouldn’t they be exempt from paying U.S. taxes? Also, shouldn’t foreign financial institutions be exempt from reporting to the U.S. about financial activities of U.S. citizens when they are outside the U.S.? I think the answer to both questions ought to be yes. EDIT: I’m aware of the rules regarding income taxes for Americans based…

Ought to, but US citizens must still report taxes every year on all global income. Some amount is exempt, though one still needs to file.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#42

Post by academia_hack » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:04 PM UTC

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I actually pay in tax. I can't have a proper retirement account here since America doesn't recognize the local pension providers, so my government mandated pension is deducted from my salary here and then also taxed as income in the USA. If I ever want to leave, the IRS charges a small fortune for the privilege of not being a citizen too.

I'm sure there's a small number of rich people gaming the system, but for the vast majority of expats the citizenship-based taxation system is almost cartoonishly cruel.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#43

Post by alephnan » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:04 PM UTC

peterbonney wrote: post #30

alephnan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while simultaneously holding most of the influence. There are 20 million millionaires in the states. This is not even 10,000 people year over year with assets, not even net worth, over $2 million. This is a tiny fraction of the population, most of whom are contrarian or pursue an alternative lifestyle, given that they are living abroad. I would hardly call someone with $2 million as having outsized influenced, they…

$2 million is the minimum to be listed - it is not the median, let alone the mean. Eric Schmidt alone has wealth equivalent to 10,000 people with a “mere” $2 million.

Yes, for every 10,000 millionaires we have a few Eric Schmidts.

There are still hundreds of billionaires in the states, and they can still access tax havens regardless of renouncing citizenship.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#44

Post by fourthwaveska » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:04 PM UTC

By most western standards my family teeters on the line between middle and upper middle clas.

We sold all of our US property last year; and now we are shopping for 4-6 unit buildings within 100km of Barcelona to get our Golden Visas. Our goal is to get citizenship and access to the EU then renouncing my US citizenship.

It isnt about money, I am juwt ashamed to have an American passport and know my tax dollars are being spent on war and murder in the name of christ and oil profits.

I was born an American and would prefer not to die that way.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#45

Post by papito » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

bellyfullofbac wrote: post #38

altcognito wrote: post #2

They’ve been allowed for decades to avoid paying for the infrastructure and management of the country while simultaneously holding most of the influence. “Renouncing citizenship” means they’ll give up none of the influence, lose the taxes, live how and wherever they want. The best thing to do is forbid them re-entry into the country nor to hold controlling interest in any company in the US. Faced with actual conseque…

Close to the top of the article: > Between the lines: While the numbers are down this year, that's probably because many U.S. embassies and consulates remain closed for COVID-19, and taking this grave step requires taking an oath in front of a State Department officer. So it seems these are American passport holders who already live in foreign countries, so contributing to American infrastructure, etc, but not benefi…

They would not be EU citizens. The taxes are even higher. The article is around specifically renouncing American citizenships. Also, dual-citizenship is useless. If you are, say, in Russia, and you have your Russian passport on you, the American consulate won't lift a finger - your ass is wholly Moscow's.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#46

Post by tartoran » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

bitdivision wrote: post #22

altcognito wrote: post #2

They’ve been allowed for decades to avoid paying for the infrastructure and management of the country while simultaneously holding most of the influence. “Renouncing citizenship” means they’ll give up none of the influence, lose the taxes, live how and wherever they want. The best thing to do is forbid them re-entry into the country nor to hold controlling interest in any company in the US. Faced with actual conseque…

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about who is giving up citizenship here. Obviously there are some high profile people who are still highly involved with the US, but I'd imagine a lot of folks doing this are those who don't live in America and don't want to deal with the hassle and cost of filing US tax returns every year when they earn no money in the US.

This article is about wealthy people. We all know they are paying relatively no taxes or doing their best to.

Yes, Americans who moved to Europe and are happily making a living there are also giving up US citizenship but end up paying taxes in 2 places or deal with a lot of hassle they’d rather not

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#47

Post by oo0shiny » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

ninja3925 wrote: post #23

amcoastal wrote: post #3

Its really a great system we have here --- get insanely wealthy off the backs of Americans who pay tons more for basic services and then when it's time to pay back run off and keep your change. No wonder America is doing so well.

“Off the back” sounds like the wealthy took advantage of folks when, in fact, they entered voluntary contracts in a win-win scenario. Creating a company is not exploitative but rather collaborative and mutually beneficial (with workers).

Not if the wealthy campaigned to keep the minimum wage below a living wage for the sake of a higher profit, while also subsidizing the welfare system so the taxpayers pick up the bill instead of the company owners.

Creating a company _should_ be collaborative, but our current capitalist system has actually become more exploitative.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#48

Post by risaacs99 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

ninja3925 wrote: post #4

It is good that we have such process for people to push back against their government greed. Usually, the citizenry is at the mercy of it and can’t do anything about it. You don’t like it? Fine. You have a choice and can get out. Good safety valve. It keeps the populist governments in check.

This is classic libertarian thinking, and I used to subscribe to it, at least to some extent. The more you think about it, though, the more it doesn't hold up.

It's just undeniably true that individual freedoms exist only to the extent that society allows them to. To think that you can opt out of society is fantasy.

It's in everybody's best interest to make sure society works well for everyone, and that kind of thinking pushes you back to the political center.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#49

Post by JCharante » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

I'm surprised more HN readers don't view citizenship as a subscription tier. Non citizens can work in the US but it's harder to do the paperwork.

What's wrong with comparing benefits between service providers? Yes the US will try to save you if you get kidnapped by extremists, but they won't go out of their way to get you vaccinated against covid unlike the Chinese government who sent sinovac supplies abroad to vaccinate their citizens.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#50

Post by dna_polymerase » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

How many of those never even lived in the U.S. but where born there and left as babies? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/10/27/us-citizensh... In this case it was 'only' a nurse, but if she'd made $2 million she would be on that list, right?