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Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

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Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#41

Post by judge2020 »

dannyw wrote: post #13
willis936 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So... all your hashes will be uploaded to the cloud? That isn't how I interpret "client-side". The privacy implications are far more subtle.

It's still really, really bad. It always starts with child porn, and in a few years the offline Notes app will be phoning home if you write speech criticising the government in China. This technology inevitably leads to the sueveillance, suppression and murder of activists and journalists. It always starts with protecting the kids or terrorism. Perceptual hashes like what Apple is using are already used in WeChat to…

> It's still really, really bad.

The OP still addresses the inaccurate statement (presented in the form of a question for plausible deniability).

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#42

Post by pseudalopex »

djd7duehrj wrote: post #35
ssklash wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this argument at all. Look at the Clipper Chip debacle in the 90s. It was technically feasible and the government very much wanted to do it. And the reason they didn't is push back from the public, saying this is a bad idea that can easily be misused, even if it does make some law enforcement things easier. I don't see how this is any different. Sacrificing the privacy of the many to help catch a r…

This argument falls on it's head when confronted by reality. Either you have a trustworthy government already that will respect your rights in a slow-rolling fashion that shifts as the dialogue within the courts evolves or you already have a government that doesn't care about you and your laws/desires at all and which will do what it wants anyway. Unless you're in the ladder there's no reason to be so hostile to empo…

Power corrupts.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#43

Post by djd7duehrj »

pseudalopex wrote: post #42
djd7duehrj wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument falls on it's head when confronted by reality. Either you have a trustworthy government already that will respect your rights in a slow-rolling fashion that shifts as the dialogue within the courts evolves or you already have a government that doesn't care about you and your laws/desires at all and which will do what it wants anyway. Unless you're in the ladder there's no reason to be so hostile to empo…

Power corrupts.

The government in your country most likely could already oppress you if it wanted to.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#44

Post by nbzso »

djd7duehrj wrote: post #38
nbzso wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually we are the weak point. The phone stuff is just unregulated capitalism.

Sure, but that still leaves the question of why mobile banking and not mobile games w/ pc banking.

Sorry, I misunderstand your question. I just don't like mobile games, and mobile banking is acceptable use case for me at the moment. But pc banking is obviously a better choice. The general idea of treating your phone as a problem has deep personal benefits. It started for me with realization (years ago) that I am an addict for "dopamine" hits and this "thing" in my pocket has direct influence on my mental performance.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#45

Post by etaioinshrdlu »

Also, if they send perceptual hashes to your device - it's possible images could be generated back from those hashes. These aren't cryptographic hashes, so I doubt they are very good one-way functions.

Another thought - notice that they say "if too many appear". This may mean that the hashes don't store many bits of information (and would not be reversible) and that false positives are likely - ie, one image is not enough to decide you have a bad actor - you need more.

But at Apple's scale, statistically, some law-abiding users would likely get snagged with totally innocent images.

Just a bad idea all around.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#46

Post by 13of40 »

zepto wrote: post #22
robbiet480 wrote: post #2

This has worrying privacy implications. I hope Apple makes a public announcement about this but wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t. I also would expect EFF will get on this shortly.

What are the implications?

False positives, what if someone can poison the set of hashes, engineered collisions, etc. And what happens when you come up positive - does the local sheriff just get a warrant and SWAT you at that point? Is the detection of a hash prosecutable? Is it enough to get your teeth kicked in, or get you informally labeled a pedo by your local police? On the flip side, since it's running on the client, could actual pedophiles use it to mutate their images until they can evade the hashing algorithm?

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#47

Post by 3pt14159 »

I'm really conflicted about this.

For context, I deeply hate the abuse of children and I've worked on a contract before that landed 12 human traffickers in custody that were smuggling sex slaves across boarders. I didn't need to know details about the victims in question, but it's understood that they're often teenagers or children.

So my initial reaction when reading this Twitter thread was "let's get these bastards" but on serious reflection I think that impulse is wrong. Unshared data shouldn't be subject to search. Once it's shared, I can make several cases for an automated scan, but a cloud backup of personal media should be kept private. Our control of our own privacy matters. Not for the slippery slope argument or for the false positive argument, but for its own sake. We shouldn't be assuming the worst of people without cause or warrant.

That said, even though I feel this way a not-small-enough part of me will be pleased if it is deployed because I want these people arrested. It's the same way I feel when terrorists get captured even if intelligence services bent or broke the rules. I can be happy at the outcome without being happy at the methods, and I can feel queasy about my own internal, conflicted feelings throughout it all.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#48

Post by gruez »

nbzso wrote: post #31
gruez wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Treat your phones as an enemy. Use real computers with VPN and software like Little Snitch when online. I'm assuming your "real computer" is a mac (since little snitch is mac only). What makes you think apple won't do the same for macos? Also, while you have greater control with a "real computer", you also have less privacy from the apps themselves, since they're unsandboxed and have full access to your system.

Not the right logic here. Check your idea more seriously. Mac os is just an example.

Your advice might be sound with the proper operating system choice, but the fact that you made such a glaring error in your initial comment makes it hard to take you seriously. It also brings into question whether you actually have a good understanding of privacy/security, or are just LARPing.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#49

Post by gruez »

nbzso wrote: post #44
djd7duehrj wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but that still leaves the question of why mobile banking and not mobile games w/ pc banking.

Sorry, I misunderstand your question. I just don't like mobile games, and mobile banking is acceptable use case for me at the moment. But pc banking is obviously a better choice. The general idea of treating your phone as a problem has deep personal benefits. It started for me with realization (years ago) that I am an addict for "dopamine" hits and this "thing" in my pocket has direct influence on my mental performan…

>It started for me with realization (years ago) that I am an addict for "dopamine" hits and this "thing" in my pocket has direct influence on my mental performance.

Sounds like this is more about "checking your phone less", than "improving security/privacy". This is evident elsewhere in your advice. eg. "phones as an enemy", but no advice about killswitches for microphone? Or some sort of mitigation against GPS/mobile networking tracking?

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#50

Post by dylan604 »

echelon wrote: post #39
bigiain wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stop. Using. Apple. But is there a realistically better alternative? Pinephone with a personally audited Linux distro? A jailbroken Android device with a non-stock firmware that you built yourself? A homebuilt RaspberryPi based device? A paper notepad and a film camera and an out of print street map?

Not really, and I'm not going to sway anyone deeply into the ecosystem. My hope is that those of you that share my viewpoint will call your legislators and demand regulations or a break up. There are forces of good within the DOJ that are putting together an antitrust case against Apple, and the more of us that lend our voices, the louder and more compelling the argument. The DOJ is really the last lever we have, and…

Wouldn't you think Apple is doing something like this at the behest of DoJ?
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