Live data from Hacker News

Use Spreadsheets Everywhere

simplethread.com

41–50 of 123 posts

Re: Use Spreadsheets Everywhere

#41

I agree with a lot of the points raised here. I think many of the problems with spreadsheets are due to the software rather than the users. As mentioned in the article, its hard to slowly iterate from a small manageable spreadsheet to an larger software solution. For example, Excel would be a lot more usable and maintainable for me if there was a way to make a special "data sheet" in which data types are forced to be…

Be careful what you wish for - I think you might have just reinvented MS Access.

Re: Use Spreadsheets Everywhere

#42
This article is BS. As others have noted, it is a straw man argument.

Everyone uses spreadsheets, including developers. I use them. I'm not going to spend 50 hours coding when I can create a spreadsheet in 5 minutes.

Of course, the issue is when things get complicated, as the author and others here have noted.

Creating a CRM from spreadsheets is pure madness, for example, when there are so many other options that exist, without having to custom program.

For me, whenever you have a one-to-many or many-to-many situation, that's where spreadsheets, to me, fall apart.

I personally have used spreadsheets to do my finances, but only because I was too lazy to scope out different bookkeeping systems. I'm fairly expert in accounting, too. I've used a LOT of different accounting systems, and installed and trained people on them. But there's no way that one can get up and running as fast as one can by using Quickbooks or other accounting systems, in terms of all the report features, etc.

Pre-defined apps are fairly unchangeable, but unless one has critical information that depends on a custom solution, it's better to shoehorn your business into a pre-existing app. I do admit that. Very few small and medium sized businesses require that, though, I've never seen one yet that can't use a prior existing solution. Though there might be, but only very, very small percentage, like, less than 1%. However, a large Fortune 1000 enterprise could have stuff they need custom programming, because of the scale. But I don't have any experience with enterprise organizations so I can't comment on that. Maybe SAP or whatever is good for them, I don't know.

Re: Use Spreadsheets Everywhere

#43

I agree with a lot of the points raised here. I think many of the problems with spreadsheets are due to the software rather than the users. As mentioned in the article, its hard to slowly iterate from a small manageable spreadsheet to an larger software solution. For example, Excel would be a lot more usable and maintainable for me if there was a way to make a special "data sheet" in which data types are forced to be…

This article is dead on from an analysis/criticism/insight: devs are called in when it's a sinking ship and don't see all the cargo the ship has hauled. Why hasn't microsoft or someone taken the basic spreadsheet model to a shared-database scalable one? The UI is basically set at this point. A naive schema (filename, tab, x, y, value) is what an excel sheet is. It's not like we are dealing with "impedence mismatch" a…

How would you put guardrails on the spreadsheets to make sure spreadsheets do not accidently damage the database performance through bad calls? In the hierarchy of skills, SQL is significantly less prevalent that spreadsheets.

Re: Use Spreadsheets Everywhere

#44
post #11

We need software that works both as a spreadsheet and as a database.

That software is Microsoft Access. Trouble is it's not updated much anymore, and it comes with Excel and doesn't need Corporate Approval, so it has a gigantic moat compared to other competitors.

There's tons of room for improvement, but it will be extremely hard to break in.

Re: Use Spreadsheets Everywhere

#45
post #32

We need a spreadsheet format that's more conducive to the professional programmer workflow. Parsing them is actually very complex. You just have to hope your library can handle everything in excel. If you're a cli native I'm not really sure what you do. Spreadsheets don't play very will with source control. If the underlying format was text and every cell and formula was on a new line it would work out ok. As it is n…

More than that it's outright stupid.

Look at what the UK tried to do their contact tracing program through an excel file. They ran in to problems at 80,000 entries because excel has limits and the whole thing fell apart during the peak of a pandemic. Spreadsheets are not Databases so don't use them as such -- thus "spreadsheets everywhere" isn't a good principal.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54423988

Author seems to acknowledge the limits of Spreadsheets but then says:

"So you’re saying we should use spreadsheets more?

Yes! The hardest part about building most software is figuring out the process."

!! I'm lost at this point !!

Re: Use Spreadsheets Everywhere

#46

I agree with a lot of the points raised here. I think many of the problems with spreadsheets are due to the software rather than the users. As mentioned in the article, its hard to slowly iterate from a small manageable spreadsheet to an larger software solution. For example, Excel would be a lot more usable and maintainable for me if there was a way to make a special "data sheet" in which data types are forced to be…

Tables are probably the most overlooked feature of Excel. Why use tables? * Each column is uniquely named - no more wondering if you are referencing the right cell, no more thinking about "to $ or not to $" * The table's rows and columns are reliably discovered by pivot tables - no more wondering if the entire dataset is referenced by the pivot * New columns that are formulas are automatically applied to every row *…

Most people have no clue these features exist, or that Excel even has advanced data modeling that supports all sorts of goodies including strict types and joins/merges/appends. It's not as accessible as just basic sheets, but I've had no problem crunching millions of rows of data in Excel with sub-second response times.

Re: Use Spreadsheets Everywhere

#47
Spreadsheets are the original low-code/no-code platforms! There's something magical about showing a non-coding subject matter expert a few Excel tips and watching them subsequently visualize and automate a process on a spreadsheet. Also, looking at spreadsheets built by non-coders is a great way to spur software/start-up ideas.

Re: Use Spreadsheets Everywhere

#48

If you have had to fill multiple, spreadsheet-based, customers' InfoSec questionnaire about your SaaS product, including the need for tailored, multi-paragraph answers (ie: you can't copy/paste from stock responses), you might disagree with the raw headline.

Hah I feel your pain, internet stranger. I feel it keenly.

Re: Use Spreadsheets Everywhere

#49
post #8

Spreadsheets versus programmers is a war that can be much more peaceful. In my work, I have found that, especially in data science, the spreadsheet user and the programmers are often trying to accomplish similar tasks, but the “language barrier” between them leads to much more fragmented workflows. I also think this article does a good job of identifying spreadsheets as a low-code programming language — spreadsheets…

Spreadsheet users are programmers. Shouldn't be a war. But, the problem with spreadsheets is that they are an engine of shoddy programming. I don't think it's fundamental. All currently existing spreadsheet implementations hide their functions and make review difficult. If we had spreadsheets that somehow exposed the relations between the cells and made them easier to inspect, ideally minimizing selective interaction…

I agree with the your statements. Would add that it is important to understand most developers of spreadsheets have never taken a programming class and do not fully understand many of the issues discussed in this thread.

Also, there is little motivation to the spreadsheet user to change. In the examples given by the author, the original creator of the spreadsheet is long gone by the time the problems surface.

Re: Use Spreadsheets Everywhere

#50
post #4

Can't disagree. Spreadsheets are incredibly powerful tools and the barrier to entry is very low. The only situation I can think of where you should discourage their use is in those situations where you know for sure in advance that the application is going to outgrow the spreadsheet very soon and/or immediately. If you are building a new microservice that will serve a million customers per day, don't make the mockup…

> Can't disagree. Spreadsheets are incredibly powerful tools and the barrier to entry is very low.

Agree!

> know for sure in advance that the application is going to outgrow the spreadsheet very soon and/or immediately

Hard to agree, what does "outgrow" mean here? Spreadsheets can handle very big use cases, with lots of data and still be useful, if you take care when building it (similarly to programming)

> If you are building a new microservice that will serve a million customers per day, don't make the mockup in a spreadsheet.

Hard disagree. Mockups are for prototyping/experimentation, so it hardly matters how you do them, as long as you throw them away before starting the main implementation (this throwing away tends to be the hardest part).

Spreadsheets are amazing prototyping tools!

Post reply on HN