Live data from Hacker News

The U.S. Government Can Nationalize the Bitcoin Network at Any Time

pastebin.com

41–46 of 46 posts

Re: The U.S. Government Can Nationalize the Bitcoin Network at Any Time

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, assume I can make this 51% attack on bitcoin. I will then mine blocks all day, and I won't let anyone else make transactions on the blockchain. Now consider that any investor who owns bitcoin can't sell it, because they can't get the transaction onto the blockchain. What is the market value of bitcoin? It's exactly zero. Bitcoin is taken down. No follow-up work required.

You seem to believe that in the face of an attack Bitcoin will not adapt, that is a fatal error. There are many methods of reaching consensus available in the toolbox and the number is only growing. Proof of work failing does not equal Bitcoin failing, you might be a bit confused about this point. ---Responding here due to rate limit... Variations of POW, POS, POK, etc....are easy drop in replacements that are active…

> Proof of work failing does not equal Bitcoin failing.

Ok, so what would equal bitcoin failing? Or is bitcoin just defined to be a success a priori?

> There are many methods of reaching consensus available in the toolbox

Are you saying that someone will come out with some new code that reuses the bitcoin blockchain, but has different characteristics?

If so then I would say there are already plenty of examples: bitcoin cash, zcash, etc. etc.

Are these altcoins really substitutes for bitcoin? Why should we expect your new altcoin that's banged out under duress to perform better than bitcoin cash has in terms of maintaining value? And even if it does, nothing prevents me from 51% attacking that one, too.

> There are many variations...

Sure, and there are already tons of altcoins putting those variations to the test. So far none of them are in the same universe as bitcoin. Also, every one of them that I have seen relies on economic incentives for security. Economic incentives are not a restraint for an entity that prints the world reserve currency.

> Good luck attacking a proof of stake hybrid that requires owning 50% of the supply, when the majority of the supply is already issued and is not available for sale.

If it's really true that there is no market for the majority of coins in a POS network then I would say that this is not a decentralized network anymore, and you are making a very strong claim when you assert that this coin will be able to serve the same purpose as bitcoin currently does. This coin is basically launched with a built-in 51% attack by design, locked in by the majority owners. It's really not so different from a CBDC.

On the other hand, if there is a market for coins in your POS world, the Fed will just buy them all. They can offer 10x, 100x, 1000x what anyone else will pay, it costs them nothing.

Finally, this is all kind of irrelevant to the article. The article merely lays out how the Fed could destroy bitcoin, not some imaginary future thing we might or might not be able to invent after the Fed 51%s actual bitcoin to oblivion.

I would give you 1,000,000 to 1 odds that 24 hours of no transactions on the bitcoin blockchain, nobody able to buy or sell bitcoin, would crash the price of bitcoin forever. What kind of person would pay $40k for such a thing. Anyone who did spend $40k of fiat to buy their bitcoin would then be out of luck, busted. That stings, and people remember the pain.

> After a few trillion dollar expended on failed attacks, the currency being issued will be debased enough to be noticeable by consumers, this "infinite money printed" argument is not thought through.

How long have the sound money people been making this tired argument? At least 50 years since Nixon put the final nail in the gold standard's coffin, but really even before that. Thought through or not, if you have been betting on the demise of fiat you've been on the losing side. After a long track record of being wrong, eventually you need to bring forth some compelling evidence that this time really is different, and I just don't see any.

As an aside, I like how weird the recursive quoting is between our two comments here, LOL.

Re: The U.S. Government Can Nationalize the Bitcoin Network at Any Time

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> funding is not an issue for projects that solve the issues Bitcoin does Funding is far less of an issue for an attacker who has a printing press, and it's the relative level of funding that matters. In order to defend against a 51% attack the defender must be able to spend more resources than the attacker. It's the "who can afford to lose more money game", where one side can just print as much money as they need wh…

They are competing with Bitcoin whether they like it or not. CBDCs are a result of Bitcoin applying pressure to central banks. As long as the money offered by central banks is censorable and heavily debased, they will be in this battle. And no, they can't destroy something that can be forked and updated an infinite number of times. Not sure why you don't understand that its trivially easy to copy Bitcoin and build an…

> Realize a successful 51% attack is just the beginning of the war, not the end of it.

I think you're right; the war will go on for awhile. But I'm convinced by https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28028542 that in the end, if anything bests fiat, it will be gold.

Barring some new technological breakthrough, it seems to me that bitcoin has no value in a fiat world, and no value proposition in a sound money world. It's a noble dead end.

Re: The U.S. Government Can Nationalize the Bitcoin Network at Any Time

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, assume I can make this 51% attack on bitcoin. I will then mine blocks all day, and I won't let anyone else make transactions on the blockchain. Now consider that any investor who owns bitcoin can't sell it, because they can't get the transaction onto the blockchain. What is the market value of bitcoin? It's exactly zero. Bitcoin is taken down. No follow-up work required.

You seem to believe that in the face of an attack Bitcoin will not adapt, that is a fatal error. There are many methods of reaching consensus available in the toolbox and the number is only growing. Proof of work failing does not equal Bitcoin failing, you might be a bit confused about this point. ---Responding here due to rate limit... Variations of POW, POS, POK, etc....are easy drop in replacements that are active…

> Bitcoin is considered anti-fragile for a reason, it gets stronger as it gets attacked.

Please explain how bitcoin gets stronger when the Fed successfully deploys a 51% attack on it and either buys or puts out of business all the honest miners?

Re: The U.S. Government Can Nationalize the Bitcoin Network at Any Time

#44
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, the FBI is secondary. The primary method id carrot: do you want your to buy bitcoin via Paypal? Do you want to pay bitcoin everywhere where the VISA is accepted? Do you want touse US based firms like coinbase? Do you want to invest into bitcoin via tax-free retirement saving program? Then avoid “bad bitcoin”. People may want to participate in mixing, but then they won’t be able to get their money back in the US.…

>People may want to participate in mixing, but then they won’t be able to get their money back in the US. I see the issue here, you think the endgame is for bitcoiners is to own more fiat. That is not the goal, fiat is dead to most bitcoiners, they will hold until fiats currencies implode like they constantly do. You seem to think the choice of money originates with banks or governments, it doesnt. The primary form o…

I thought that the “end game” of bitcoiners is to have it replace fiat - be accepted in stores, be the preferred way to send money to others, be the primary way to get paid and so on.

So what are bitcoiners gonna do if Paypal and VISA add “pay with bitcoin” option and give it to billions of users? It would be a nice and simple interface that is easy to use but that complies with “bad bitcoin” list.

For every hardcore bitcoiner who is waiting for fiat to implode, there would be 1000 laypeople who do not care but they bought some bitcoins because TV said so. And all of those laypeople will be forced to comply with “bad bitcoin” list.

So now let’s say you have a bitcoin business. You can accept “good bitcoins” that you can send to billions of people, or “bad bitcoins” which you can only send to hardcore bitcoin enthusiasts, 0.1% of population. Is there any economic sense to accept “bad bitcoins”?

Re: The U.S. Government Can Nationalize the Bitcoin Network at Any Time

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to believe that in the face of an attack Bitcoin will not adapt, that is a fatal error. There are many methods of reaching consensus available in the toolbox and the number is only growing. Proof of work failing does not equal Bitcoin failing, you might be a bit confused about this point. ---Responding here due to rate limit... Variations of POW, POS, POK, etc....are easy drop in replacements that are active…

> Bitcoin is considered anti-fragile for a reason, it gets stronger as it gets attacked. Please explain how bitcoin gets stronger when the Fed successfully deploys a 51% attack on it and either buys or puts out of business all the honest miners?

Study anti-fragilty.

This article is dead. It took me a long time to argue against it because I assumed you knew what "adaptability" of bitcoin meant in practice. It seems you didn't and will need to do a lot more research before discussing viable attacks in the future.

Your attack vector fails and we know Satoshi knew the game theory and outcomes of just this scenario over a decade ago, as it is detailed in his posts on the bitcointalk forums. They are a great starting point for you to learn more about bitcoin's various defense mechanisms.

Re: The U.S. Government Can Nationalize the Bitcoin Network at Any Time

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong, a 51% attack by itself will not take down Bitcoin. There is follow up work that I don't think they are competent enough to complete.

Ok, assume I can make this 51% attack on bitcoin. I will then mine blocks all day, and I won't let anyone else make transactions on the blockchain. Now consider that any investor who owns bitcoin can't sell it, because they can't get the transaction onto the blockchain. What is the market value of bitcoin? It's exactly zero. Bitcoin is taken down. No follow-up work required.

If you compromised bitcoin, wouldn't you want it to stay high in value? You could still wreck shop but a more realistic example is needed.
Post reply on HN