Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone? • Hacker News Board

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#41

Post by jesusthatsgreat » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 12:13 PM UTC

The harsh reality is that there's not enough incentive to work for a lot of people through a combination of state supported welfare, lack of job security (i.e. short term contracts / zero hour contracts) and the financial and mental health cost involved in working (transport to and from work, paying for childcare etc.. it's a financial cost but also impacts work / life balance i.e. a lot of people realise they have none if they work).

Remove all forms of welfare and you can bet people would be queuing up for jobs to keep a roof over their heads and buy food. The problem is, if you were to do that, the situation would be taken advantage of by the super wealthy - as has been the case time and time again in any sort of recession.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#42

Post by peakaboo » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 12:13 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #5

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, try being over 50. I just gave up, and retired early. Best decision I ever made. I'm working for free, with NPOs, and it's been a joy. The worst part, for me, has been the naked contempt and disrespect. I don't expect to be worshipped, but raw insults are beyond the pale. It's -literally- like a hazing ritual. With all the news about "frat boy culture," I think I see where it comes from. I don't think it's just…

It will stop, at some point. IT is still growing but we're reaching the point where IT workers are a decent percentage of all workers, so they are starting to become representative of the population at large. Larger and larger cohorts of IT workers are aging and recent graduates will stop being enough even for the top companies. Also, salaries are lower in general but I get the impression Europe is better in this reg…

Salaries may be lower but work/life balance seems much higher in Europe.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#43

Post by School-Cotton » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 12:14 PM UTC

BossingAround wrote: post #21

calltrak wrote: post #7

I am an unemployed programmer. I am 50 years old. I have 15 years of C#, 15 years of sql server, two years of golang, two years of node.js, vue.js, svelte, css, html, postgress, rabbitmq, etc etc etc.... My skills list is about 10 times this short list I just threw up. They tell me there is a skills and labor shortage in tech. That's complete bullshit I am UNEMPLOYED for a year. I don't believe one dam word the gover…

Might also be an attitude problem on your side. If you're serious about getting a job, consider coaching. This "nobody is hiring, everything sucks, and I'm the victim here" narrative isn't really helping you. Also, bringing up stuff like "lies about the cough" (which I assume is OP talking about COVID) absolutely undermines your credibility as an individual capable of critical thinking, which is necessary for softwar…

It’s true though, the media has massively distorted the truth about covid over and over since the beginning.

For the most recent egregious example, see this exchange: https://mobile.twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/142122951874...

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#44

Post by Archelaos » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 12:15 PM UTC

ahartmetz wrote: post #13

oblio wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will stop, at some point. IT is still growing but we're reaching the point where IT workers are a decent percentage of all workers, so they are starting to become representative of the population at large. Larger and larger cohorts of IT workers are aging and recent graduates will stop being enough even for the top companies. Also, salaries are lower in general but I get the impression Europe is better in this reg…

Yes, being older and working in software doesn't seem to be big problem in Europe. A previous (European) employer of mine with a very geopraphically distributed workforce even employed some older Americans.

With regard to Germany, I have the same impression. Mature companies, at least, seem to have a mature workforce. Have a look at a picture of the SAP big band: https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=2060...

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#45

Post by peakaboo » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 12:15 PM UTC

jesusthatsgreat wrote: post #41

The harsh reality is that there's not enough incentive to work for a lot of people through a combination of state supported welfare, lack of job security (i.e. short term contracts / zero hour contracts) and the financial and mental health cost involved in working (transport to and from work, paying for childcare etc.. it's a financial cost but also impacts work / life balance i.e. a lot of people realise they have n…

Hmm. That argument seems to be that instead of making tech fun to work in, we should make sure there are no other options so people have to work there.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#46

Post by throw_m239339 » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 12:16 PM UTC

There is no "employee shortage". I don't know the reason why the main stream press started to roll with that narrative but this is a blatant lie. However unlike before the pandemic, some candidates might refuse a job that only offers a pittance, especially given the high inflation in most of the west.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#47

Post by saiya-jin » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 12:18 PM UTC

BlissWaves wrote: post #28

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As noted elsewhere, it seems Europe may be a better place for older folks. I know that some nations have some fairly strict laws about discrimination. In the US, we have the same laws. It's flat-out illegal to discriminate by age, as it is by race, religion, gender, pregnancy, marital status, etc. Out of that list, if a company tries anything other than age discrimination, they are pilloried and investigated. However…

I don't see any evidence Europe being better for older folks. On top of that salaries are really really low in Europe. Unless you are in the US and are going to graduate university at 22-23 best to forget about a career in STEM. Not worth the effort and time. Milk has a longer expiry date than a STEM worker who's perceived over the hill late-twenties or early thirties.

Many things in those sentences are plainly not true. In Europe, you can get very rich (by say western european standards) if you do 1-man consulting well. I mean in top 0.01% salary bracket for some countries while having fairly standard current skillset (soft and hard skills). Switzerland and Luxembourg have very high permanent salaries - not SV levels, but definitely fine ones and affording a great lifestyle.

Quality of life, say in Switzerland, (and I know this can be a hot topic that depends on personal preferences) is way better than basically anything US can offer for similar wealth bracket. That's my personal view, based on my personal opinions, evaluations and wish to give my kids the best and healthiest environment to grow up in so obviously not universally true.

Older dudes are definitely very supported here, but this is specific per sector/company. Average age of my coworkers (banking en Suisse) is around 45-50, all devs, admins, devops. We wanted to hire one 55 year old guy for dev position last week, we made him (a generous) offer already but he chose a different position. He didn't have the skillset list much bigger than what is flying around by OP (maybe some crypto stuff but we don't do it yet).

What you describe are mostly startups full of folks who want to get rich quickly, mostly fail, have attention span shorter than tick of second hand on my watch. You can find those everywhere. But that's a relatively small part of the market and at least here definitely not the best paying one.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#48

Post by goodpoint » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 12:18 PM UTC

phenkdo wrote: post #17

calltrak wrote: post #7

I am an unemployed programmer. I am 50 years old. I have 15 years of C#, 15 years of sql server, two years of golang, two years of node.js, vue.js, svelte, css, html, postgress, rabbitmq, etc etc etc.... My skills list is about 10 times this short list I just threw up. They tell me there is a skills and labor shortage in tech. That's complete bullshit I am UNEMPLOYED for a year. I don't believe one dam word the gover…

It stretches credulity that you have that many skills and still unemployed. Employers are hiring just about anyone in tech these days. Where are you located? You can kvetch about the media all you want, but the job market is the best it has ever been, and unlikely to get any better. Sorry to be harsh here, but if you can't find a job in this market, you ought to reconsider your professional choices.

In may English-speaking countries ageism is the norm. You don't get any offer after 45 unless you are famous.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#49

Post by simonh » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 12:18 PM UTC

jesusthatsgreat wrote: post #41

The harsh reality is that there's not enough incentive to work for a lot of people through a combination of state supported welfare, lack of job security (i.e. short term contracts / zero hour contracts) and the financial and mental health cost involved in working (transport to and from work, paying for childcare etc.. it's a financial cost but also impacts work / life balance i.e. a lot of people realise they have n…

I don't think there's a good argument the social security system in the UK is excessively generous. Our long term unemployment is only around 360,000 people. That's people unemployed for more than 12 months. The vast majority of our 1.7m unemployed, roughly 4/5 of them, are simply between jobs. I have no problem supporting these people through the transition.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#50

Post by TheAdamAndChe » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 12:20 PM UTC

BossingAround wrote: post #21

calltrak wrote: post #7

I am an unemployed programmer. I am 50 years old. I have 15 years of C#, 15 years of sql server, two years of golang, two years of node.js, vue.js, svelte, css, html, postgress, rabbitmq, etc etc etc.... My skills list is about 10 times this short list I just threw up. They tell me there is a skills and labor shortage in tech. That's complete bullshit I am UNEMPLOYED for a year. I don't believe one dam word the gover…

Might also be an attitude problem on your side. If you're serious about getting a job, consider coaching. This "nobody is hiring, everything sucks, and I'm the victim here" narrative isn't really helping you. Also, bringing up stuff like "lies about the cough" (which I assume is OP talking about COVID) absolutely undermines your credibility as an individual capable of critical thinking, which is necessary for softwar…

You've got cause and effect flipped here. It's not the bitterness that causes one to be not hired, its not being hired that causes bitterness. I experienced the same when trying to get in the field. The narrative at the time was that there was a labor shortage, and they were trying to push for more H1B visa holders. Yet there were very very few entry level positions, nobody was training, and the company that hired me paid horribly($12/hr) and didn't teach me anything. Keep in mind, I had recently graduated from university in the field.

For decades, employers had far more leverage than employees. Now that that's eroded a bit, everyone is panicking. But this is exactly what is needed to employers to actually train and care about their workers.