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As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

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Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#41

Post by vonSeckendorff »

mkn wrote: post #28
ctdonath wrote: post #21

"Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against - then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only p…

I don't find that to be the most plausible mechanism for the proliferation of laws at all. More likely, it's an emergent property of the legal system in a democratic context that can probably be explained in terms of game theory. At any legislative junction, there's a cost or benefit associated with enacting or not enacting a law. Take the arrowhead removal example from the article. You're a lawmaker and you're faced…

I don't disagree with what you wrote, but I too got tripped up on "cash in on guilt". I read it twice before deciding it doesn't mean cashing in on a person's inner turmoil, but rather exploiting the fact that the person is legally guilty.

The quote is much more sensible under that interpretation.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#42

Post by sliverstorm »

vacri wrote: post #40

Roscoe Howard, the former U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia, argues that the system "isn't broken." The US, the "Land of the Free", has a per capita prison population that it 5-10 times greater than any of it's first-world colleagues. The system is broken.

There could be other interpretations to that, besides "we are less free!"

Could one not argue that an increase in prison inmates is the unavoidable consequence of increasing freedoms? It seems counter intuitive, but perhaps the more freedoms one has, the more readily one encroaches on freedoms one does not have?

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#43

Post by sliverstorm »

Alex3917 wrote: post #7
thinkcomp wrote: post #6

Thanks to the State of California, virtually every private university president and trustee is now a criminal, too. http://www.quora.com/Aaron-Greenspan/The-California-Law-That...

Meh, every single person in the US is already a felon. We all possess schedule I drugs in our bodies[1], and there is plenty of legal precedent saying that you can be convicted of narcotics possession for drugs that are in your body. [1] DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, Anandamide, etc.

Are there established limits? For example, I believe there is always alcohol in your bloodstream (or at least there is if you use products on your skin containing alcohol) but that is not a crime unless you exceed the BAC threshold.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#44

Post by mkn »

vonSeckendorff wrote: post #41
mkn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find that to be the most plausible mechanism for the proliferation of laws at all. More likely, it's an emergent property of the legal system in a democratic context that can probably be explained in terms of game theory. At any legislative junction, there's a cost or benefit associated with enacting or not enacting a law. Take the arrowhead removal example from the article. You're a lawmaker and you're faced…

I don't disagree with what you wrote, but I too got tripped up on "cash in on guilt". I read it twice before deciding it doesn't mean cashing in on a person's inner turmoil, but rather exploiting the fact that the person is legally guilty. The quote is much more sensible under that interpretation.

In context, I think it means the former. Not having the context available, your interpretation of the remarks at hand might make more sense.

However, a motif of Rand's is to moralize about capitalism and individuality. One of the themes, of which I think the current quote is an example, is that people have been trained to feel bad about their selfish impulses. Rand viewed the laws of her time as an outgrowth of the "evil" of altruism. As such, their "power" comes not just from being enforced, but from being held out as altruistic norms and carrying the moral weight that goes beyond their mere enforcement. As ludicrous as that sounds, I think I disagree with you and find it even more ludicrous that the antagonist actually wants to incarcerate people. To what end?

Also, the antagonist explicitly disavows that he want the laws obeyed, and also that they are even meaningful. He's trying to get people to live in fear.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#45

Post by sliverstorm »

dredmorbius wrote: post #38
dustingetz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True story: traffic cop pulls me over, turns out im doing something wrong and he could have me towed. cop asks to search my car for drugs and weapons. "Do I have the right to refuse this search?" Cop responds that I do, but heavily implies that he will have me towed if I refuse. I consented, he found no drugs or guns, I was allowed to drive away.

True story: I was driving home after a long day out with friends (hiking with some, dinner with another). Started feeling very sleepy, pulled off the freeway to take a nap. Woke with a flashlight in my face and highway patrol knocking on my window. Exited the car, locking it. Identified myself and presented ID. Refused consent to search the vehicle: "I don't consent to any search". Officer implied strongly that he co…

And it is up to each individual to elect when to assert them. That's another one of our rights.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#46

Post by irons »

The Andersons are two of the hundreds of thousands of Americans to be charged and convicted in recent decades under federal criminal laws—as opposed to state or local laws—as the federal justice system has dramatically expanded its authority and reach.

"Who could have predicted that breaking into people's voicemail was going to cause such a fuss?"

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#47

Post by dspace »

mkn wrote: post #37
maqr wrote: post #9

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor…

I'm probably going overboard by responding to both the Rand fanboy quotes, but here goes. There's no way to rule innocent men. Yes, there is, to the extent that that rule is legitimate. Usually, just powers arise from the consent of the governed. For example, sane people pay taxes because they understand that they have need of the canonical services of roads, fire service, police, the military, and the like. The only…

> Yes, there is, to the extent that that rule is legitimate. Usually, just powers arise from the consent of the governed. For example, sane people pay taxes because they understand that they have need of the canonical services of roads, fire service, police, the military, and the like.

It is Randians who think that civilization is the only free lunch.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#48

Post by vacri »

sliverstorm wrote: post #42
vacri wrote: post #40

Roscoe Howard, the former U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia, argues that the system "isn't broken." The US, the "Land of the Free", has a per capita prison population that it 5-10 times greater than any of it's first-world colleagues. The system is broken.

There could be other interpretations to that, besides "we are less free!" Could one not argue that an increase in prison inmates is the unavoidable consequence of increasing freedoms? It seems counter intuitive, but perhaps the more freedoms one has, the more readily one encroaches on freedoms one does not have?

People aren't all that different, and generally want the same things. Besides, the US isn't that much freer than its first-world contemporaries. For example, although we in Australia don't have constitutionally-protected freedom of speech, the Press Freedom Index puts us as having more freedom of public speech than in the US, and both of us are well below most of the northern European states.

http://en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2010,1034.html

The word "freedom" occurs much more frequently in American political discourse, but that does not mean that Americans are automatically freer than anywhere else. I find it hard to believe that those extra freedoms that Americans do have (which most don't seem to exercise in day-to-day life) is sufficient to cause a fivefold increase in per capita prison population.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#49

Post by spc476 »

mkn wrote: post #28
ctdonath wrote: post #21

"Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against - then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only p…

I don't find that to be the most plausible mechanism for the proliferation of laws at all. More likely, it's an emergent property of the legal system in a democratic context that can probably be explained in terms of game theory. At any legislative junction, there's a cost or benefit associated with enacting or not enacting a law. Take the arrowhead removal example from the article. You're a lawmaker and you're faced…

What if all laws (except for the Constitution) automatically sunsets after a period of time, say, 20 years?

The job of the legislation is to create laws, by definition. So is it any wonder we end up with an accumulation of laws, some outdated? With an automatic sunset of all laws, this keeps the legislation busy without burdening us with an accumulation of outdated laws.

If it's really important, let the law be renewed after twenty years.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#50

Post by ctdonath »

mkn wrote: post #28
ctdonath wrote: post #21

"Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against - then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only p…

I don't find that to be the most plausible mechanism for the proliferation of laws at all. More likely, it's an emergent property of the legal system in a democratic context that can probably be explained in terms of game theory. At any legislative junction, there's a cost or benefit associated with enacting or not enacting a law. Take the arrowhead removal example from the article. You're a lawmaker and you're faced…

Reducing laws means reducing the bureaucracy supporting their enforcement. This is a powerful counter-incentive. This would never be discussed in public, but will induce lots of rationalizations.

Example: When Prohibition of alcohol ended, the regulating agency faced serious reductions in staff. Funny, severe restrictions on firearms (NFA) were enacted right about the same time - and guess which body was assigned oversight and enforcement?

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