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Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

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Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#41

Volvo has this feature -- dubbed City Safety -- already on the road. It may seem snobbish to some, but I'd never let myself, my wife, and my future children drive anything but a Mercedes or Volvo. Between the two of them, they've been behind nearly every safety system developed in the last 40 years. I feel good about knowing that our hard work has let us put my wife in a car, for her 30 minute commute, that has 12 ai…

I'll buy my first car in a few months (at the tender age of 31). I was eyeing Mercedes already, and your comment only confirms everything I've read about it. Do you know if these features are available in their class C cars, or do I need to get an E class?

Actually, yes. Most of those will be available on the C class starting MY 2012.

If you live in North America you can probably expect 2012's to be available in September and October.

You can pre-order now, of course. Including a wonderful option where you go to Germany, pick the car up as it rolls off the line, drive it around Europe for up to 30 days, then drop it back off to them to have it shipped to the US: And you get the car at dealer invoice less 8%. That's a little involved for a first time Mercedes buyer, but I wanted to make you aware of it, it's a very great program they've got there.

The C is a great car. We've got one in our family. If you have any questions, http://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w204-83/ is a great C Class forum. I'm active there under the same handle.

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll buy my first car in a few months (at the tender age of 31). I was eyeing Mercedes already, and your comment only confirms everything I've read about it. Do you know if these features are available in their class C cars, or do I need to get an E class?

Actually, yes. Most of those will be available on the C class starting MY 2012. If you live in North America you can probably expect 2012's to be available in September and October. You can pre-order now, of course. Including a wonderful option where you go to Germany, pick the car up as it rolls off the line, drive it around Europe for up to 30 days, then drop it back off to them to have it shipped to the US: And yo…

Awesome. Thanks encoderer.

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#43

Volvo has this feature -- dubbed City Safety -- already on the road. It may seem snobbish to some, but I'd never let myself, my wife, and my future children drive anything but a Mercedes or Volvo. Between the two of them, they've been behind nearly every safety system developed in the last 40 years. I feel good about knowing that our hard work has let us put my wife in a car, for her 30 minute commute, that has 12 ai…

That's interesting, because Mercedes's Traction Control system almost killed me one night. Apparently it's possible to accidentally induce a very slight but controllable oversteer slide by overshooting the exit to a fast curve and touching a rumble strip with the outside tires. No surprise there.

In a normal car, you keep your front wheels on the line you want to follow, release power, then smoothly add power to "shift weight" to the rear wheels and increase traction (acceleration causes the rear suspension to compress, making the rear tires push harder on the ground, increasing the normal force and increasing rear wheel traction). Doing that stops the oversteer (rear wheel skid).

In a Mercedes, the car assumes that you're an idiot for doing that, cuts engine power to the drive (rear) wheels, and applies breaks to the OUTSIDE REAR WHEEL. That procedure has the effect of decompressing the rear suspension and decreasing traction to the rear wheels, which are already skidding. The slide that resulted was unrecoverable. Yank the parking break and shift into neutral while in a hard corner at 40mph if you want to know what it felt like. For a few seconds, my instincts and the car's Traction Control fought each other as I tried to correct for the skids that improperly braking the rear wheels was causing.

Finally, I came to rest having skid across the double yellow…and then somehow the automatic transmission stalled.

It was a "mistake" that could have been fixed in less than a second driving a 1908 Model T. After a hundred years of innovations, Mercedes has completely removed the driver from direct control of the vehicle, WITHOUT an option to turn off those so-called "features."

I spent the next several months talking to people who did tuning for Daimler-Chrysler for a shop in Montana, cracking ECU encryption to reprogram the fuel injectors and intake system to perform well at high altitudes. And apparently there's no good way to turn off that Traction Control system except removing large chunks of code from the ECU, which voids the warranty and might have serious side effects. When I learned more about how the Traction Control system actually works, I sold the car.

I will never own another Mercedes. They breed laziness and irresponsibility without giving competent drivers the control they need to drive safely.

I'm currently an avid BMW fan because of two major factors: first, it's possible to buy manual transmissions without special ordering a new car from Germany; second, it is possible–by holding a button on the console for a few seconds–to COMPLETELY disable traction control. I have driven in snow and ice, torrential downpours, and heavy traffic in the last year. I haven't driven with Traction Control on since Mercedes almost killed me in 2006.

Frankly, I think EVERY SINGLE ONE of the safety features you suggested is a horrible idea. Pay attention to what you're doing, and don't drive if you're not physically and mentally capable of driving. I don't want my car to wake me up if I fall asleep driving…I want to be smart enough to not drive that night.

Frankly, the more I hear about Mercedes safety features, the more distance I like to keep between me and them on the highway.

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#44

Yikes. I like safety features like airbags and strong cages that won't collapse on the driver in a crash. I don't want my car making driving decisions for me. It may be done in the name of safety but until they invent a car that can't break, I don't trust it not to cause more problems than it helps.

Luddite. :P Seriously, would you prefer a car that was built by a robot or a human?

Personally, while I see where you are coming from and share your reservations about unproven technologies, I also foresee a time - within our lifetimes and hopefully sooner than later - where cars are 100% computer controlled and roads are at least an order of magnitude safer.

Imagine if every drunk at the bar could just press "home" on the dashboard of their car and then sleep it off during the trip?

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#45

Volvo has this feature -- dubbed City Safety -- already on the road. It may seem snobbish to some, but I'd never let myself, my wife, and my future children drive anything but a Mercedes or Volvo. Between the two of them, they've been behind nearly every safety system developed in the last 40 years. I feel good about knowing that our hard work has let us put my wife in a car, for her 30 minute commute, that has 12 ai…

That's interesting, because Mercedes's Traction Control system almost killed me one night. Apparently it's possible to accidentally induce a very slight but controllable oversteer slide by overshooting the exit to a fast curve and touching a rumble strip with the outside tires. No surprise there. In a normal car, you keep your front wheels on the line you want to follow, release power, then smoothly add power to "shi…

I think you should keep in mind that you appear to be an intelligent, skilled and avid driver. For you driving is an experience you take seriously and also seem to enjoy. I'm not worried about what you do on the road, but I am worried about the millions of less intelligent and skilled drivers that are pushing 3000lbs of metal around at lethal speeds.

I think you are justified in wanting and buying a machine that suits your needs, but please don't assume that everyone is or even should be as adamant about driving as you are. I for one will happily let the computer take the wheel and allow me to focus on things I care about like conversation or coding. If I want a joy ride hopefully I'll be successful enough to own a classic gasoline powered driving machine ;)

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#46

Volvo has this feature -- dubbed City Safety -- already on the road. It may seem snobbish to some, but I'd never let myself, my wife, and my future children drive anything but a Mercedes or Volvo. Between the two of them, they've been behind nearly every safety system developed in the last 40 years. I feel good about knowing that our hard work has let us put my wife in a car, for her 30 minute commute, that has 12 ai…

That's interesting, because Mercedes's Traction Control system almost killed me one night. Apparently it's possible to accidentally induce a very slight but controllable oversteer slide by overshooting the exit to a fast curve and touching a rumble strip with the outside tires. No surprise there. In a normal car, you keep your front wheels on the line you want to follow, release power, then smoothly add power to "shi…

You may not want the car to wake you up, but you'll certainly want the car of the incompetent driver next to you to wake him up before he careens into you on the highway.

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#47
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly the wrong approach. Better approach: Install a small wireless sender in the car that broadcasts at a given frequency. Then allow people who want a minimum noise level to buy a small receiver that broadcasts those signals (or another type of indication signal) to a headset. This allows you to keep the noise level down and at the same time provides "notifications" to the visually impaired.

Neat idea, but two significant problems. 1. Blind folks generally rely on directional sound. Knowing a car's nearby is better than nothing, but you can't tell how fast it's approaching you, from what direction. 2. In a city, it'd never stop beeping at you.

Also, by forcing the purchase of a receiver for something that in some cases is vital safety information, you'll by definition have more accidents than you would if it were a real sound.

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#48
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Automatically making a decision (that the human is better at making) What about when the car really is better at making that decision? IMHO, we are few scarce decades away from cars that will just be plain better drivers than the median meatbag.

> IMHO, we are few scarce decades away from cars that will just be plain better drivers than the median meatbag. ...except that we've been a few scarce decades away from this for a few decades now. For the most part the history of this thought process is that we dramatically underestimate the problems involved.

One could argue that the same arguments in the aviation industry are simply playing out now in the automotive industry. What you'll probably end up with is a Boeing and an Airbus: some manufacturers will trust the driver more than the computer, and some will trust the computer more than the driver.

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#49
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting, because Mercedes's Traction Control system almost killed me one night. Apparently it's possible to accidentally induce a very slight but controllable oversteer slide by overshooting the exit to a fast curve and touching a rumble strip with the outside tires. No surprise there. In a normal car, you keep your front wheels on the line you want to follow, release power, then smoothly add power to "shi…

You may not want the car to wake you up, but you'll certainly want the car of the incompetent driver next to you to wake him up before he careens into you on the highway.

No, I don't. I'd rather he have to take responsibility for his actions and decide whether he really needs to take that chance instead of thinking "it's okay that I'm exhausted…my car will wake me up."

Re: Toyota automatically stops car before it can hit pedestrian

#50
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting, because Mercedes's Traction Control system almost killed me one night. Apparently it's possible to accidentally induce a very slight but controllable oversteer slide by overshooting the exit to a fast curve and touching a rumble strip with the outside tires. No surprise there. In a normal car, you keep your front wheels on the line you want to follow, release power, then smoothly add power to "shi…

I think you should keep in mind that you appear to be an intelligent, skilled and avid driver. For you driving is an experience you take seriously and also seem to enjoy. I'm not worried about what you do on the road, but I am worried about the millions of less intelligent and skilled drivers that are pushing 3000lbs of metal around at lethal speeds. I think you are justified in wanting and buying a machine that suit…

Driving at a high level is one thing. It requires a lot of skill and concentration.

Not killing people is completely different: it requires basic skills and some small measure of multi-taking ability. Which is more important, reacting to the car changing lanes without a signal in front of you or finishing your sentence RIGHT NOW?

The problem isn't even skill level. Driving normally at city and highway speeds is easy. The vast majority of 1st world residents know how to do it, and very very few of them make mistakes severe enough to affect anyone else's lives. The average driver is nowhere near as bad at it as most people seem to think.

But taking the driver's commitment to and awareness of the risks inherent in driving away and placing that burden on active "safety features" is a bad thing. I know their hearts are in the right place and that I'm not the person these systems are designed for. But they're going to get people killed.

My issue with Mercedes's Traction Control in particular isn't even that it makes drivers lazy. It's that in at least that situation, it can't tell the difference between power-induced oversteer and breaking-induced oversteer. In that situation, it reacted EXACTLY WRONG. It doesn't matter whether the driver is competent or not if the system makes the opposite changes that it should.

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