Humans break sometimes and get violent.
Just the other day a 16 year old student in Singapore used an axe to kill a 13 year old in a bathroom at school. They had never met.
10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway
41–50 of 138 posts
Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway
#42Ten years on, and it's chilling to consider how much more widespread Brevik's ideology has become worldwide. Ethnonationalism has elbowed its way to a seat at the table, demanding "toleration" for itself that it would never reciprocate for pluralism.
Ethnonationalism (or at least ethnocentrism) is as old as time, and probably the 'default' mindset. Lack of any other force, especially when combined with the 'nation' part i.e. organized nation state, it might get out of hand, which is why it can come to be a problem, but nominally, it's not. It's probably a defining feature of how we organize ourselves.
So the very existence of most of our nations, is a form of 'Tolerance' of it.
If you look at the borders of Europe and how they flop around over time, it becomes clear that the 'delineating' factor is mostly ethnicity, at least crudely. Sometimes, a political dynasty can force those lines (i.e. Habsburg) but those don't last. What were the chances that Netherlands, Spain, Austria, Hungary, Romania and Slovenia etc. were going to stay organized under one House?
Even highly authoritarian ideological secular organizations i.e. USSR failed. Napoleon failed outside his borders whereas within France, it might have just worked for him.
Religious Empires aka Arabic conquest, have some lasting impact but that didn't change borders in any lasting way mostly (although maybe in SE Europe).
Despite a degree of 'multi-culture' in China, the CCP authoritarianism hinges on Han ethnocentricism without which it probably would not hold together.
Where those 'ethnic lines' are drawn poorly, we see trouble.
Belgium is almost a 'failed political state' (literally 100's of days in a row without a government) and the 'division' is 100% because of Flemish/Walloon divide.
Canada has the 'Quebec' factor which has really fundamentally affected things and has a profound effect.
The 'Long Straight Lines in the Desert' in the Middle East were arguably drawn poorly after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and a lot of people tend to point at that as an existential source of instability and why we see problems to this day. Iraq is not a functional state as the Kurds have de-facto independence, and the primary source of instability is the Shia/Sunni divide, unfortunately inflamed by neighbouring parties for their own gain.
The 'New World' aka US, Canada, Australia, Brazil represent something different surely, but even there, it's hard to ignore strong ethnic foundations of the colonizing powers.
Greece is still Greece today after 2500 years, the borders are similar. Also note their 'primary antagonists' i.e. 'Persians' are also something very roughly resembling a state today.
Of course for every 'long lived state' there are 10 that don't exist anymore, but there seems to be resiliency in culture more than anything else.
So I think it's a matter of keeping 'true extremists' (aka not vast government spying and overreach) under wraps as individuals, not so much thinking about specific kinds of movements.
I also believe that these kinds of people would just as easy fall under some other cultural/religious/ideological/extremist umbrella.
I don't think there's much difference between 'XXX extremist' and 'YYY extremist' even if they are ostensibly opposed to one another.
Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway
#43Ten years on, and it's chilling to consider how much more widespread Brevik's ideology has become worldwide. Ethnonationalism has elbowed its way to a seat at the table, demanding "toleration" for itself that it would never reciprocate for pluralism.
From his wikipedia entry:
> The Jerusalem Post describes his support for Israel as a "far-right Zionism". He calls all "nationalists" to join in the struggle against "cultural Marxists/multiculturalists" [1]
Now fear of "cultural Marxists" destroying Europe/US/Christianity etc is mainstream talk in right of center politics.
[1] http://www.jpost.com/International/Norway-attack-suspect-had...
Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway
#44Anyone know what Norway will do when Breivik's 21 year prison sentence [0] is up in 10-12 years? Difficult to imagine him being released back into society. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Anders_Behring_Breivi...
It's 21 years because that's the longest formal imprisonment sentence allowed for crimes (other than war crimes) in Norway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_Norway . It doesn't mean that such prisoners are definitely released with 21 years - it can (and likely will) be extended indefinitely for as long as a prisoner remains dangerous to society: > If the prisoner is still considered dangerous after…
It’s fascinating getting glimpses of other justice systems like this. Meanwhile in the US many states have three-strikes laws where you can get a mandatory life sentence for repeat offenses, even if the last offense is relatively minor or non-violent. Insanity.
Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway
#45Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm obviously not defending him, but those were 16-18 year olds who were already party members. My point is: it's easy to find flaws in the reasoning of extremists, and use that to show how "crazy" and "illogical" and "insane" they are, and thereby distance ourselves (mentally) far from them. What we need to do however is face the much more scary truth that even the people who commit atrocities are for the most part…
Two 14 year olds, seven 15 year olds, eight 16 year olds, sixteen 17 year olds. I wasn't counting folks eighteen and over. He killed 33 children.
OK, 33 14-17 years olds who were already party members then... That doesn't materially change the point I made.
Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway
#47Humans break sometimes and get violent. Just the other day a 16 year old student in Singapore used an axe to kill a 13 year old in a bathroom at school. They had never met.
This was a crime planned for months, carried out with care, and based in ideology. Comparing it to a random act of violence is disingenuous.
Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway
#48Ten years on, and it's chilling to consider how much more widespread Brevik's ideology has become worldwide. Ethnonationalism has elbowed its way to a seat at the table, demanding "toleration" for itself that it would never reciprocate for pluralism.
Do I misunderstand these terms, or hasn't ethnonationalism been the norm historically and pluralism quite rare?
Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway
#49The fact that Breivik cited Hindu Nationalism in his manifesto went under-reported totally. The guys he cited are today on Twitter spewing the same hatred day after day. Hindu Nationalism now rules over India and they aren't going anywhere. World has changed so much within a decade.
> Hindu Nationalism now rules over India and they aren't going anywhere.
Then why are Hindus being threatened and murdered every day for being Hindus?
How can Hindu monks be casually lynched in the presence of police personnel?[1]
Why were those who voted for the BJP during the Bengal elections forced to flee their homes?[2]
And why are the hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits who were systematically driven out of Kashmir in the late 1980s not back in their original homes?[3]
This is typical Hinduphobic propaganda. Deliberately ignore all the atrocities committed on Hindus and then cry that it is the Hindus who are killing everyone.
[1] https://www.republicworld.com/india-news/law-and-order/palgh...
[2] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/bengal-post-poll-viol...
Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can't help but think that if the actual impact of gun violence (and violence in general) was shown in the media, we'd have a lot less of it to deal with...
Probably not though, gun violence is not caused by people not being aware of the consequences or the shock thereof. It's not even caused by gun ownership itself. There's a whole slew of issues behind gun violence in the US.
It could cause people to take action around laws or other issues that contribute to gun violence - because they want less of it to occur.