Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly • Hacker News Board

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#41

Post by asukhwani » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

ludwigschubert wrote: post #4

It’s great that you’re finding a way to pay people quicker that’s less bad than payday loans! What stops employers from paying wages more often right now? When I worked in the US, some places would pay you every two weeks. With instant bank transfers, couldn’t that frequency go down to weekly or daily, without the need for a middleman?

100 years ago, people were paid just after they worked. There are two reasons why that stopped being the case. Firstly, it’s a lot of work for the company. Secondly, it’s worse for the company’s cash flow. As others have also replied, the first is most significant.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#42

Post by asukhwani » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:41 PM UTC

antihero wrote: post #21

I mean, if workers are withdrawing money this month, which I presume is then taken off their wages next month, they are now in the hole, and even without interest, the problem just gets worse and worse, because then the next month they are more likely to withdraw early because they have less money. I do not know if this is financially responsible. How exactly will this prevent a horrific snowballing effect?

jkhdigital is right.

Also, bear in mind that our average user in Spain takes out 50$, whilst their salary is >1,000$. We also regularly survey users to see chat reasons they make withdrawals for. Our conclusion is users are taking small portions of their salary to cover unexpected expense.

It’s so much better than paying for an expensive overdraft!

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#43

Post by asukhwani » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:43 PM UTC

Grustaf wrote: post #36

asukhwani wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. It would have been more accurate to state that we were surprised at how much people used the app! Over 40% of employees that have access to our app use it! Also, we were surprised by how high user retention is.

Don’t you worry that easy access to credit will exacerbate the problem, leading people ever deeper in depth?

Our average user in Spain withdraws 50$, but their monthly salary is >1,000$. We also regularly survey users to see chat reasons they make withdrawals for.

Our conclusion is users are taking small portions of their salary to cover unexpected expenses.

Users tell us they love this, because otherwise they would have had to ask a friend for money.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#44

Post by asukhwani » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:45 PM UTC

datavirtue wrote: post #27

Sort of like this?: https://www.earnin.com/

This is one of 100+ players trying to solve this problem. It’s a real problem and lots of us are trying to solve it!

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#45

Post by asukhwani » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:46 PM UTC

airza wrote: post #2

>In fact, we even give employers an optional feature where they can set a cap on the % of salary that their employees can withdraw. Can you clarify this?

Suppose an employee has a salary of 1,000$ per month. If the employer sets this filter at 50%, the employee can only withdraw up to 500$ on Payflow. Makes sense?

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#46

Post by asukhwani » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 1:51 PM UTC

ck_one wrote: post #18

shever wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scroll down to the app screenshots on payflow.es and wagestream.com. The UI for withdrawing cash is pretty much identical.

Thanks, yes it looks like a 1:1 copy. Interestingly, the founders reply to other questions here but not to the copy accusation.

In fact, only just yesterday, someone asked me “how come Wagestream copied your UX/UI?” ;)

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#47

Post by potamic » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:01 PM UTC

qnsi wrote: post #30

I worked at a company that was working on this. I left because of ethical reasons. >Workers living from pay check to pay check have traditionally been vulnerable to exploitation And the proposed solution doesn't fix that. Most of those people don't have a problem with unexpected expense once a year. They don't budget and are short on cash every month. So now imagine Bob needs money halfway through the month. He takes…

I have a cynical view of how this product is going to turn out. Instant, easy access to wages is going to form habits in users to live on a day-to-day basis instead of budgeting for a month. With no headroom they will be that much more desperate in an emergency and that's the time to attack them with loans. The end game is always loans. That's the only way to make money in finance.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#48

Post by dd36 » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:02 PM UTC

jkhdigital wrote: post #25

antihero wrote: post #21

I mean, if workers are withdrawing money this month, which I presume is then taken off their wages next month, they are now in the hole, and even without interest, the problem just gets worse and worse, because then the next month they are more likely to withdraw early because they have less money. I do not know if this is financially responsible. How exactly will this prevent a horrific snowballing effect?

If you step back for a minute, consider this question: when do you pay for goods and services? Usually, the moment you receive them. When does your employer pay you for the services you provide? …two weeks later, wut

Many businesses don’t get paid right away.

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#49

Post by dmd » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:04 PM UTC

asukhwani wrote: post #46

ck_one wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, yes it looks like a 1:1 copy. Interestingly, the founders reply to other questions here but not to the copy accusation.

In fact, only just yesterday, someone asked me “how come Wagestream copied your UX/UI?” ;)

So... is the ;) an admission that you copied theirs? Does YC know about this?

Re: Launch HN: Payflow (YC S21) – Allow workers to access their wages instantly

#50

Post by wutbrodo » Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

antihero wrote: post #22

asukhwani wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. It would have been more accurate to state that we were surprised at how much people used the app! Over 40% of employees that have access to our app use it! Also, we were surprised by how high user retention is.

Most likely because people are desperate for money because they need to eat, and your app will create a snowballing effect where the next month, they are even more desperate because a chunk has been taken off their pay.

This doesn't make much sense. The counterfactual is that they'd be desperate to eat and take out a sky-high APR short-term loan. How is the new ability to take zero-interest loans "creating" the snowballing effect instead of reducing an already-existing one?

This is called "the Copenhagen interpretation of ethics", in which any interaction with a situation in an attempt to improve it somehow gets warped into shouldering responsibility for the preexisting situation in its entirety. In this case, you've somehow transfigured substantially reducing the cost of credit into "creating global poverty".