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I had to give a wrong answer to get the job (2017)

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Re: I had to give a wrong answer to get the job (2017)

#41

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

Good post.

Humans are important (and also illogical). If we are to work in a team, then we definitely need to factor humans into the equation.

That also means, that when we evaluate the employer, we should try to find out as much as possible about the human culture there. Even if they are all tech whizzes, if the team is broken, the job will be a nightmare.

I was talking to a guy a couple of days ago, about a job he quit after two days.

He noticed that every time the manager walked onto the floor, everyone put their heads down, and avoided eye contact. It was only a matter of time before the manager cut a victim out of the herd, and humiliated them in front of the others.

During the interview, this same manager was a font of friendliness. But on the floor, he was a tyrant.

Re: I had to give a wrong answer to get the job (2017)

#42

Post by marcosdumay »

chrisseaton wrote: post #5
heurisko wrote: post #2

> Anyway, there was only 1 proper solution to this: I had to answer what they thought was correct. I think it was a poor solution. There are ways to respectfully disagree. "I really think I'm right on this one. Since it's a question of facts, not opinion, we could easily verify it later." Did the author know they were hired because they didn't rock the boat, or despite of it? If I were hiring someone, I would want to…

> Since it's a question of facts Is it? I think it's an opinion. How would you empirically test if the answer was right or wrong? What's on Wikipedia is also someone's opinion, isn't it? What's in a book that Wikipedia references is again someone's opinion. If you can't write a program or other set of instructions to test it... it's an opinion. 'How does Dr Foo say that MVC maps to database-server-client?' would be a…

Well, it's a matter of definitions. What means it's a completely useless and dumb question, but also that the majoritarian opinion on the relevant context is a fact.

That said, I don't think I've seen MVC used with the same meaning twice... what makes the question even worse.

Re: I had to give a wrong answer to get the job (2017)

#43

Post by flavius29663 »

tyingq wrote: post #21

This isn't a great example to me. I doubt the interviewers would disagree that the actual code in MVC runs at the "application tier". I think they were just trying to elicit the idea that the model defines interaction with the database and that the view defines interaction with the browser client. That there is some relation there between MVC and 3-tier architecture. The Wikipedia snippet that disputes any relationsh…

exactly. The author could have gone into the differences between the 2, how they are the same but not really, by choosing the words wisely. He could have made it a non-attack by interjecting "from my experience" or "from what I know" or "the way I usually refer to this" etc. There are no correct answers, since these patterns are never applied in practice in a pure format, pretty much just like the classic design patterns from the GOF. This is a weak example from OP.

Re: I had to give a wrong answer to get the job (2017)

#44

Post by typon »

treis wrote: post #39
tyingq wrote: post #21

This isn't a great example to me. I doubt the interviewers would disagree that the actual code in MVC runs at the "application tier". I think they were just trying to elicit the idea that the model defines interaction with the database and that the view defines interaction with the browser client. That there is some relation there between MVC and 3-tier architecture. The Wikipedia snippet that disputes any relationsh…

Seconded. What they're calling the right answer is the pedantic answer.

Disagree. The difference is fundamental and if you don't know it you are going to be stuck with a false understanding of the framework you're working with - and you will likely end up trying to shove bad abstractions into places where they don't belong, resulting in an unmaintainable mess of code. I have seen this happen in a lot of codebases where people fundamentally misunderstand the abstractions they're building on top of.

Re: I had to give a wrong answer to get the job (2017)

#45

Post by zabzonk »

In my experience, being "right" is no bar to getting the job.

In one case where I was going for a C++ expert job, I got asked a question (that I can't remember now), gave the correct answer, which the interviewer disputed. I asked if they had a copy of TC++PL on hand, which they did, and I pointed out the relevant section. I got the job.

In another case, I was asked something complicated about "const" in C++ (which has a few gotchas), gave the right answer, but was still disputed. I got the job, and on my first day the guy that asked the question came up and apologised to me - he'd read up on it after.

IMHO, telling the truth about technical matters is always best; I might fib a bit about other things.

Re: I had to give a wrong answer to get the job (2017)

#46

Post by dijit »

chasing wrote: post #6

A job interview is also you judging the company and people you’re applying to join. If you feel the team lead can’t handle you answering questions honestly because it might reveal one of his or her blind spots, that’s not a great sign.

Ironic, as I almost always interview for the opposite.

I don't really care what you currently know because software development paradigms can be learned with relative ease for a motivated and intelligent individual who already knows something.

So instead I:

1) Poke around their CV/Resume. Just ensuring that they have the stuff they say to a basic level (some people just spam keywords)

2) Get them to a point where they admit they don't know something. Usually this means a deep dive on something common to the role I'm hiring for and that they have experience in.

If you're unwilling to say you don't know something I usually reject the candidate. I know interviews are stressful and you want to impress your interviewer, but if you're willing to try to bullshit me at an interview then you're willing to bullshit me in a post-mortem, and I can't have that.

Honesty - Intelligence - Experience

in that order, always.

Re: I had to give a wrong answer to get the job (2017)

#47

Post by belter »

In the Benelux, try to get a job after answering what you really think about Scrum. If the local Scrum Master is present in the interview team you will be "persona non grata" for the rest of your career...

"One Hacker Way Rational alternative of Agile - Erik Meijer"

https://youtu.be/2u0sNRO-QKQ

Nowadays a Developer has to act a little bit like in this scene from Good Will Hunting.

Make yourself stupid...you will be hired.

https://youtu.be/UpL3ncoK99U

Re: I had to give a wrong answer to get the job (2017)

#49

Post by nvilcins »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #36
Radim wrote: post #9

Heh. Happens all the time with tests and questionnaires, the choice is always frustrating: * "Does the author really mean what they are asking? Are the mistakes in the phrasing or corner cases intentional, meant to catch me, test my deep knowledge?" , or * "Is the author just not very good with logic / not thinking this through?" I go with the latter in "soft social" contexts. Never regretted it yet. This saved my hi…

Same with some driving exam questions I have had. For example worded something like that, "does driving faster in some sections of the journey affect your planned time of arrival?" I don't remember if the wording was specifically like this, but it was something that to me logically obvious answer is "yes", but the correct answer and what they expect is "no", to show that you are a reasonable driver who won't speed un…

Wow those sound like such badly designed questions. What country is this?

Re: I had to give a wrong answer to get the job (2017)

#50

Post by tomerv »

rocqua wrote: post #26
tomerv wrote: post #15

Can't really comment on whether that was the correct way to handle the situation, given that passing the interview was the goal. However, I would have a hard time giving an incorrect answer on purpose. I also consider an interview as an opportunity to learn about the company I'm going to work for, and especially my future colleagues. I would probably try to give a full answer, such as "there's a widely-held concept X…

Do you want to have that discussion with your team-lead almost fully cold, in front of his superior? Because in the article, that is the key point. The applicant was totally willing to go into a fair discussion about the pattern. However, doing that in front of the tech-lead his boss is likely to be different from a fair discussion. Disagreement about technical architecture is fine. Doing so in front of higher manage…

The tech lead is not the one being interviewed here. Presumably, they are already respected in their workplace, and admitting that they learned something from the candidate's full answer should be seen as a positive by their manager. The way the candidate frames the answer is important here, so no-one seems stupid for holding a common misconception.

And if the tech lead can't admit in front of their manager to not knowing everything? That's a sign of a toxic workplace.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I have previously found myself in a situation similar to the tech lead: the interviewee gave a solution that I didn't know about - one that could be considered better - and my manager was in the room interviewing with me. I told the interviewee that this is a new direction I haven't thought about until now. It's important, otherwise we can't continue an honest discussion about the solution.

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