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Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

appleinsider.com

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Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#41

Post by vinni2 »

mjburgess wrote: post #38
onion2k wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shouldn't matter who owns a patent. If the person or company who registered it has decided to 'cash it in' and sell it to a company whose business is patent licensing is OK. Whether or not the patent is valid is the important issue. Optis 'won' $506m in the US as well, but the supreme court reverted the decision on Apple's appeal. The UK court has decided that it is valid (for now). Something very important to not…

Well as you say it's "leave the market for mobile phones", ie., it'll be iPhone which goes -- rather than Apple as such. If the fee is 20x on their profits from iphones, personally, I'd leave -- for a few years at least. The opportunity cost is very high: leave for 2+ years and prompt the UK gov to act. Then return. Also, my issue is exactly with "validity" conditions. Regardless of what they are , my view is we need…

> If the fee is 20x on their profits from iphones, personally, I'd leave -- for a few years at least. The opportunity cost is very high: leave for 2+ years and prompt the UK gov to act. Then return

And loose the customers base who would otherwise be locked into iOS/Apple ecosystem? It’s not just profits from iPhones they would be loosing.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#42

Post by thaumasiotes »

onion2k wrote: post #30
mjburgess wrote: post #14

Let's be clear. This is a patent troll company engaged in anti-innovation rent-seeking behaviour. They're seeking billions in payouts and provide zero innovation, research, development, etc. Just because it's targeting Apple doesn't make it right. Companies of this type should be illegal. A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the sta…

It shouldn't matter who owns a patent. If the person or company who registered it has decided to 'cash it in' and sell it to a company whose business is patent licensing is OK. Whether or not the patent is valid is the important issue. Optis 'won' $506m in the US as well, but the supreme court reverted the decision on Apple's appeal. The UK court has decided that it is valid (for now). Something very important to not…

> Something very important to note here is that the comment was made in regard to a case arguing whether or not Apple agree to be legal bound by another case next year to decide the patent license fee. Apple are arguing that they'll leave the market if the fee is too high. The reality is actually that if they agree to a binding agreement in the current case, and then decide the fee is too high after the case next year and refuse to pay it, they'll be banned from selling iPhones in the UK. Their exit from the market won't be their choice.

I'm having trouble seeing why this sequence:

    Court: pay $X fee or stop selling iPhones.

    Apple: OK, we'll stop selling iPhones.
doesn't represent Apple choosing to stop selling iPhones.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#43

Post by Black101 »

mjburgess wrote: post #14

Let's be clear. This is a patent troll company engaged in anti-innovation rent-seeking behaviour. They're seeking billions in payouts and provide zero innovation, research, development, etc. Just because it's targeting Apple doesn't make it right. Companies of this type should be illegal. A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the sta…

> All people holding patents need to be innovating with them, or otherwise, lose them after a short period.

A patent only last 15 or 20 years... copyright is a much bigger issue (copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years).

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#44

Post by tonyedgecombe »

willis936 wrote: post #33
gcthomas wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that leaving the market will absolve Apple of paying the judgement, so staying in the UK market will help them recoup the cost. Leaving would be unlikely to improve their bottom line, so the judge was right - no evidence Apple will leave. This is just posturing, which won't go down well in front of a High Court judge.

Why would Apple pay the fine?

To avoid their executives going to prison.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#45

Post by MikeDelta »

mjburgess wrote: post #32
Taniwha wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would this look different from someone holding a perfectly valid patent that Apple was using without licensing it? (I have no idea as to whether this one is valid or not, I'm as against patent trolls suing people with bogus patents as anyone else) Surely the patent IS the innovation, and a perfectly valid way to use that innovation is to license it to larger companies.

The patent holder would be a company operating in the same market as apple, having a viable market for products somewhat related to the patents they hold. Eg., an electronics company. If they can't meet that condition, sell the patent to a company who can. They'll actually innovate with it (ie., use the licence feeds to fund something useful).

This is a great condition that would invalidate all patent-trolls.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#46

Post by TeMPOraL »

inertiatic wrote: post #37
mjburgess wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If apple's UK iPhone profits really are in the c. 50mil range, then a (5 to 10)bn fee to remain is commercially non-viable. Note that this is about Apple's ability to sell an iPhone in the UK, and as far as I can see, it wouldnt affect whether the entire company would remain in the UK. If I were apple, I would withdraw a product from a country which supported this kind of racketeering.

Apple sells 7 million iPhones a year in the UK, Google tells me. Even at just 100 profit a unit, should be way more than 50 million in profit. Ignoring income from other things like accessories, the store etc.

Not to mention, the complementary effects. Someone buying an iPhone today is more likely to choose an Apple device as their laptop. Someone buying an iPhone today is more likely to buy another iPhone in a few years, over an Android phone.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#47

Post by benjaminjosephw »

arcturus17 wrote: post #11
benjaminjosephw wrote: post #5

The UK has a relatively strong chance of creating decent competitive challengers to Apple if the UK market opens up with their exit. Even if a few consumers are frustrated in the short term this could lead to a fantastic outcome for a competitive consumer marketplace over the long-term.

I don’t know about your politics, but regardless, “the UK will be able to build an Apple competitor” sounds like a level 99 brexiteer delusion.

Imagining a change in the tech landscape isn't that absurd. If there's a vacuum in the market, do you not think there are capable technology startups in the UK that could fill it?

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#48

Post by ksec »

For reference the King of all 3G/4G and 5G patents Qualcomm only charge ~$7-$15 per devices depending on how you count the rebate on Modem.

>In 2020, the UK Supreme Court ruled a UK court can set the rate for patent payments worldwide, despite the court only being able to consider the infringement of UK patents. A trial in 2022 will determine how much Apple will have to pay.

From my limited reading I think and correct me if I am wrong that is why the numbers it so large at $7B. It is basically if a patent that is ruled valid in the UK, the company will have to pay the fees for it worldwide, i.e ~250M unit per year and all the past years of infringement. The only way to not have to pay would be to get out of the UK market so the company will have to have its patent on trial in court in every other country.

There is no way that $7B was made solely on the iPhone sold in UK. The numbers just dont add up.

>> I'm not sure that is right. Apple's position is it should indeed be able to reflect on the terms and decide whether commercially it is right to accept them or to leave the UK market. There may be terms that are set by the court which are just commercially unacceptable.

This is not a threat. But a valid argument, which is so rare from Apple. It is not the first time Apple has threaten to leave the market in numerous other occasions such Australia, Germany, or EU.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#49

Post by sdflhasjd »

Zenst wrote: post #6
benjaminjosephw wrote: post #5

The UK has a relatively strong chance of creating decent competitive challengers to Apple if the UK market opens up with their exit. Even if a few consumers are frustrated in the short term this could lead to a fantastic outcome for a competitive consumer marketplace over the long-term.

Reading https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/apple-app-store-was-a-majo... I'd say it is not so much the consumers that would be impacted by such a hissy fit that Apple has mooted.

Of course, that's a claim from Apple in response claims of anticompetitive behaviour.

I find it difficult to believe, as a mobile developer myself, that 330,000 jobs are being supported by the App Store in any meaningful way.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#50

Post by chasil »

onion2k wrote: post #30
mjburgess wrote: post #14

Let's be clear. This is a patent troll company engaged in anti-innovation rent-seeking behaviour. They're seeking billions in payouts and provide zero innovation, research, development, etc. Just because it's targeting Apple doesn't make it right. Companies of this type should be illegal. A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the sta…

It shouldn't matter who owns a patent. If the person or company who registered it has decided to 'cash it in' and sell it to a company whose business is patent licensing is OK. Whether or not the patent is valid is the important issue. Optis 'won' $506m in the US as well, but the supreme court reverted the decision on Apple's appeal. The UK court has decided that it is valid (for now). Something very important to not…

In the interests of demonstrating a harsh penalty for judicial overreach, I would like to see this case made, and Apple abandon the market.

I don't know the British system well enough to understand what reaction public opinion would have on members of parliament, but some censure of the judge and reversal of the patent decision could happen.

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