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European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

eci-ubi.eu

41–50 of 155 posts

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#41

[flagged]

Well, in the U.S. we're practically out of capitalist ways to subjugate people to the point that we have people being paid pennies an hour to work in overcrowded, for-profit, prisons. Likewise, one of the biggest, and most brutal, prison systems in the world, which just so happens to be disproportionally full of people who's ancestors were slaves.

So, let's try some new forms of subjugation at least as you'd have to be incredibly creative to find new ways of capitalist oppression.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#42
post #30
post #16

Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…

Many people have more than a billion, and I can't really think of any sort of luxury you get with 10 billion you can't easily have with 1B. Above the 1B mark you are solely holding wealth to further manipulation of macro-level power structures to your advantage. UBI is a means to forcibly redistribute anything above a certain "unlimited life of luxury" threshold to keep it below oligarchy. Also, I want fun, cool, tec…

Wealth is not income; one is a stock, the other is a flow. This is not even Econ 101, it's grade-school level knowledge. You can't have a policy of draining "wealth" to fund an income subsidy without very severe side effects.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#43

[flagged]

That's exactly what it is. Privileges and handouts in exchange for obedience and votes (at least nationally - the EU has gone full CCP with their irreplaceable bureaucrats).

> through taxes and inflation, which is the worst kind of tax.

100% correct. Most EU members have official debt that equals GDP (some are worse) and they probably figure they have another 50% of GDP to borrow.

Now is also a great opportunity to transition from Covid 19 handouts to UBI (first experimentally and then - after EU-funded scientists discover it works really well - on an ever growing scale).

If they spend 5% of GDP per year on UBI, that can go on for a decade or longer before everything collapses.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#44
post #30
post #16

Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…

Many people have more than a billion, and I can't really think of any sort of luxury you get with 10 billion you can't easily have with 1B. Above the 1B mark you are solely holding wealth to further manipulation of macro-level power structures to your advantage. UBI is a means to forcibly redistribute anything above a certain "unlimited life of luxury" threshold to keep it below oligarchy. Also, I want fun, cool, tec…

There are under 3000 billionaires worldwide. In order to generate enough revenue for any sort of meaningful UBI the government would have to raise taxes on more than just billionaires.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#45
I’m sceptical about UBI, but I am willing to change my mind if it works (on a large scale) in practice. The only thing is that I do not want to be part of the experiment.

Since I am from the EU this initiative concerns me, but I would fully support an US or Chinese experiment.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would it be meaningful when the rent you need to pay in Munich is several times what you need to live in eastern Poland?

There is no inherent right to live in Munich, whilst there is a natural right to life and a decent subsistence even for those who cannot immediately secure gainful employment. UBI is about securing the latter, not the former - and doing it at the lowest possible cost.

> There is no inherent right to live in Munich, while there is a natural right to life and a decent subsistence even for those who cannot immediately secure gainful employment.

Why do you believe in one and not the other? I don't see any compelling categorical difference between either of these. The latter just "feels better" because "life and decency" are positively connoted. In both cases, the "right" is that person A has to pay the cost for person B to live a certain way. If you restricted your argument, to, say, a "right" to the bare minimum nutritional supply to survive, that would be categorically different. However, that's not an issue in the EU anyway.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#47
post #12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No reason why the UBI needs to be a flat universal rate rather than adjusted based off local economic factors.

How would that work in practice? Wouldn't people just move to the higher UBI areas?

The exact same is already true for minimum wage and salary in general, and while some people do migrate, there has arguably been no society-ending migration wave due to this reason. This is a common trope that has no basis whatsoever.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would it be meaningful when the rent you need to pay in Munich is several times what you need to live in eastern Poland?

There is no inherent right to live in Munich, whilst there is a natural right to life and a decent subsistence even for those who cannot immediately secure gainful employment. UBI is about securing the latter, not the former - and doing it at the lowest possible cost.

Yes, there is a natural right to live where you're at home.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would it be meaningful when the rent you need to pay in Munich is several times what you need to live in eastern Poland?

There is no inherent right to live in Munich, whilst there is a natural right to life and a decent subsistence even for those who cannot immediately secure gainful employment. UBI is about securing the latter, not the former - and doing it at the lowest possible cost.

The EU is no unified entity. Fot obvious reasons, any UBI would be adapted to local circumstances. Side note, unemployment benefits are based the last salaries already, as a result they tend to reach the cap more often in places like Munich than the Polish border. Social security is not based on region, any rent subsidies are so. And while there is no right to live in Munich, there the right to live where you want. Or to continue to live in the place you already live, if not necessarily the house or apartment.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#50
post #21
post #16

Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…

I have no idea if you are right or not, but it is a pretty wild political science theory that a policy can benefit too large of a majority of the population and therefore would be unpopular.

I'm not a political scientist, but it doesn't seem too far fetched? What OP seems to be saying is that it's easier to capture a small but strong follower base with focused effort, than a large (or any) follower base with diffuse effort. If the current social and political climate is any indication, people (at society level) genuinely don't seem to be receptive to efforts of unification and the betterment of mankind.

The agendas that are most successful are those which are laser focused to benefit particular groups, or even worse, to ensure that certain vilified groups have it worse. In the US, higher taxes are a very controversial topic, even if they would benefit the majority of the people. Even worse, some of the most ardent opposition is from the social class would most stands to benefit from liberal policies.

The whole game theoretic aspect of rational actors is out the window. Instead we have ever more isolated groups of people who don't care that they have it bad as long as their presumed opposition has it worse.

In light of all that, I'm actually inclined to agree with OP that a campaign that would benefit north of 50% of the population could easily be unpopular as a punchy opposition riles up the throngs of temporarily embarrassed millionaires to vote against their own interests.

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