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Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

nature.com

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Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#41

Post by polote »

raphlinus wrote: post #12
polote wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we have any proof that the second dose is useful at all ?

There's very strong evidence, particularly against the Delta variant[1]. That paper cites a 33.5% effectiveness after one dose, compared to 87.9% after two doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine. [1]: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.22.21257658v...

But the issue, is that if you had your first dose 2 days before being infected, you count as being infected after 1 dose.

We need to compare "1 dose, x days after first dose" and "two doses, x days after first dose" to compare the same thing

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#43

Post by raphlinus »

enterexit wrote: post #28
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #5

The mRNA vaccines have been the silver lining to the whole COVID-19 disaster. They seem “unreasonably effective” against COVID, basically if you had a genie that you could ask to make a vaccine, it would be hard to do much better, other than the requirement for 2 jabs. In addition, the mRNA technology has broad applicability to other issues such as other viruses (such as flu) and even cancer!

Does mixing of one mRNA vaccine with another mRNA vaccine for the second does create the same effect as if it's one brand of vaccine was used?

They are considered "interchangeable" by the National Advisory Committee on Immunization of Canada.

[1]: https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/immunization...

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#44

Post by superkuh »

hammock wrote: post #4

This is great news, adding to a report in Nature that the natural immunity produced in people who have already had covid may last a lifetime.[1] In case you hadn't heard, the Cleveland Clinic--consistently regarded as one of the top hospital systems in the United States and in the world--recently shared a study of 52,238 patients showing zero incremental benefit from the jab to the previously infected, recommending t…

I read the entire Nature paper. I wouldn't call this paper great news. It's just confirmation of the not terrible news we had before.

Is 12 to 15 weeks (3-4 months) really "long lasting" antibody mediated immunity? I'm glad the antibodies still neutralize even gamma that long but 3-4 months is the timespan people were previously calling "short". Yes, T cell responses (the cells that kill infected cells) to sars-cov-2 epitopes last longer (not covered in this article) but this just seems to confirm the short coverage of b cell mediated antibodies.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#45

Post by mywittyname »

jaywalk wrote: post #8
hammock wrote: post #4

This is great news, adding to a report in Nature that the natural immunity produced in people who have already had covid may last a lifetime.[1] In case you hadn't heard, the Cleveland Clinic--consistently regarded as one of the top hospital systems in the United States and in the world--recently shared a study of 52,238 patients showing zero incremental benefit from the jab to the previously infected, recommending t…

It's time for the naturally immune to be treated the same as those who've been vaccinated. There is absolutely zero scientific evidence to the contrary, and plenty of evidence to support it.

Vaccination is more comprehensive than natural immunity though. We've already see that the BNT vaccine offers a higher degree of protection against variants than natural immunity, or indeed other vaccines.

Reinfection studies from a few months ago demonstrated that natural immunity is roughly 50% effective for people aged 65 or over. And that's the age group most likely to experience negative outcomes from covid-19, it's seems prudent to go ahead and recommend vaccinations for this age group, regardless of previous infection.

Then there's the elephant in the room: so few people have been tested that it really difficult to know who has had it. Anyone who has had a cold in the past 18 months is going to claim they had covid, regardless of whether they tested positive or not. It would be easier to vaccinate this group than it would be to perform a test for covid antibodies.

If covid hadn't become a political shit-show, I'd agree with you. But at this point, I think it's a little irresponsible to society to give anyone an out on getting vaccinated.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#46

Post by xadhominemx »

crazygringo wrote: post #33
xadhominemx wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s hard to reliably verify previous infection and very safe and easy to get vaccinated, so what’s the point? I’m going to check your profile — 90% chance you spread antivax propaganda. Edit: yup. Every time.

Good antibody tests are extremely (99%) accurate in verifying previous infection, not sure why you're claiming the opposite...? And while vaccination is safe and easy to get , both me and a lot of my friends were basically as sick as a regular flu for a day or two from it. Some people have no reaction, which is wonderful, but a lot of people need to take a sick day or two, or intentionally get the vaccine on a Friday…

What is the population of people who are willing to get a blood draw for an accurate antibody test but haven’t been vaccinated already and can’t afford moderate flu-like symptoms for a day? I’m sure a small number of people like that exist but it’s not really worth carving out complex exceptions to vaccination rules (specifying which kind of antibody tests administered by who and when, etc.) to accommodate their preferences.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#47

Post by bryan0 »

haswell wrote: post #9
polote wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we have any proof that the second dose is useful at all ?

Yes, this was covered in the trials for both vaccines.

pfizer trial showed first dose by itself was extremely effective. check out the chart here: https://www.businessinsider.com/how-well-pfizer-shot-works-a...

Much of the data comparing efficacy of 1 vs 2 doses doesn't wait until 10-days after the first dose, which defeats the point. That being said 2 doses is more effective, just not by as much as you'd might think.

edit: replaced the above link because it was pay-walled

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#48

Post by btrfsck »

wait_a_minute wrote: post #22
xadhominemx wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s hard to reliably verify previous infection and very safe and easy to get vaccinated, so what’s the point? I’m going to check your profile — 90% chance you spread antivax propaganda. Edit: yup. Every time.

It’s not your business to verify anything. It’s up to the individual to do what is best for their own situation. Focus on decisions for your own self and family.

The best solution for my own self and family is to be part of a system where we all agree to take basic precautions to safeguard the more vulnerable who cannot.

If everyone who can get vaccinated does, then it fundamentally changes how dangerous the world is for those who are immunocompromised, or are too young to receive the vaccine.

I wish that the number of people too selfish or foolish to receive the vaccine was small enough that we could protect them with herd immunity as well, but given the area around me seems to be stalling out at about 70% vaccinated, it is clear that we cannot.

Being anti-vaccination or anti-medicine seems particularly foolish to me. Has anything else we've ever done in all of history come close to the positive humanitarian impact that the development of vaccines has? Aside, perhaps, from the development of antibiotics or sanitation or irrigation?

Being able to vaccinate ourselves has to be one of the major legs up we've developed as a species in general. And people are choosing to discard it. I find it deeply frustrating.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#49

Post by jaywalk »

crazygringo wrote: post #33
xadhominemx wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s hard to reliably verify previous infection and very safe and easy to get vaccinated, so what’s the point? I’m going to check your profile — 90% chance you spread antivax propaganda. Edit: yup. Every time.

Good antibody tests are extremely (99%) accurate in verifying previous infection, not sure why you're claiming the opposite...? And while vaccination is safe and easy to get , both me and a lot of my friends were basically as sick as a regular flu for a day or two from it. Some people have no reaction, which is wonderful, but a lot of people need to take a sick day or two, or intentionally get the vaccine on a Friday…

It has been shown that people who previously had Covid are more likely to have a worse reaction to the vaccine than those who hadn't. So when you combine that with the evidence that the vaccine actually confers no additional benefits to those people, it's exactly like you said: why make them suffer?
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