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The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

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Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#41

Post by alkonaut »

roelschroeven wrote: post #20
greatgib wrote: post #9

> The wording is strange, it looks like they say that it is wrong to say that it is inauthentic. But, there is no doubt, if you buy Greek feta that is manufactured in Australia in addition with different recipes and ingredients origins, it is clearly inauthentic and deceptive.

But the thing is, what if you produce feta with the exact same ingredients and recipe in Australia? The customer gets the exact same thing, only made somewhere else. I'm all for quality standards, so that customers can now exactly what they get. But be able to use a name based on the location where something is produced, that doesn't protect the customer at all. It only protects a selected set of producers.

> The customer gets the exact same thing, only made somewhere else.

That’s not exactly the same thing: buying one item gives support to producers in the original location while buying the other product doesn’t. I’m sure an American company (or Australian Greeks) could make a better product, but the actual physical product itself is just half the story.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#42

Post by Kim_Bruning »

We all agree that roads are useful. If everyone agrees to drive on the right (or everyone agrees to drive on the left), then the rules all make sense and traffic runs more smoothly.

So really this is a system that is rather like trademarks, and with similar purposes. But instead of a made up name, you use the name of the town or region where something is made.

This does have its own upsides and downsides; like the fact that you have to remember that people make somewhat similar cheeses in Brie and Camembert, or in Gouda and Edam[1]. But like with trademarks, you do know that you'll always get the same consistent quality; be it good or bad.

It's a system. And it works well enough for its purpose.

[1] I did say similar. If you're a big cheese fan, please don't hurt me!

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#43

Post by jkldotio »

alkonaut wrote: post #36
jkldotio wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feta comes from φέτα/~"slice", so it's not named after a region. Melbourne has one of the largest Greek populations in the world. Why don't these Greek people have right to their heritage? If the British were to start trying to say that "sandwich" was protected and American sandwiches were "inauthentic and deceptive" would you take such a claim seriously?

> Why don't these Greek people have right to their heritage? Probably because it would be difficult to find any reasonable middle ground between “can only be made at the geographical origin” and “can be made anywhere by anyone” Also for a lot of product the origin more than the heritage of the people is central, such as the climate and soil in Champagne (which perhaps soon will be most historically authentic in south…

So you've conflated regional with generic, a distinction I pointed out first, without any worked reasoning at all.

People generally lose their trademarks quickly if they don't enforce them and allow them to go into the language https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_and_generici...

I honestly don't see you as providing a real argument from first principles.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#44

Post by ginko »

roelschroeven wrote: post #39
skywal_l wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you produce exactly the same sneakers than Nike? That does not protect the customer and protects the producers too. But somehow, nobody compains about that. I don't see why brands should be more protected that countries or regions name.

Champagne is not a trademark like Nike. While I think everyone should be able to produce Champagne under the name Champagne, I think only Veuve Clicquot, Bollinger, ... should be able to use those specific names. Those are trademarks like Nike.

That's the point of PDOs though. That they are essentially a form of trademark.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#45

Post by alkonaut »

anoncake wrote: post #35
dopidopHN wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cybernetic again, cheese is more than the sum of its part. I’m only half joking. Plus, for some recipe the food that the cow ate and the altitude do make a difference in the output. I’m all for other places making cheese and whatnot. But when you buy the said cheese to find the exact taste you know since childhood, and that you miss in the exotic land you are living as a adult… You can be picky on the product. I want…

You ignored > but let's assume that you can make sheep milk in Australia that has the same properties as Greek sheep milk.

That’s still just a property of the physical product. That’s just half the story. The important thing is keeping the production in the original region. So I want it to have the competitive advantage of the name. As a consumer I want my money to support the producers in the original location, which is easier if I know that the name means it’s produced there.

Note that zero of these arguments have anything to do with quality or whether I could even distinguish the product from one made elsewhere. That’s secondary.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#46

Post by alkonaut »

jkldotio wrote: post #43
alkonaut wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why don't these Greek people have right to their heritage? Probably because it would be difficult to find any reasonable middle ground between “can only be made at the geographical origin” and “can be made anywhere by anyone” Also for a lot of product the origin more than the heritage of the people is central, such as the climate and soil in Champagne (which perhaps soon will be most historically authentic in south…

So you've conflated regional with generic, a distinction I pointed out first, without any worked reasoning at all. People generally lose their trademarks quickly if they don't enforce them and allow them to go into the language https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_and_generici... I honestly don't see you as providing a real argument from first principles.

I used Champagne as an example, but the same applies to Parmesan, Feta and Västerbotten which are reginal by tradition in one case and by name in two.

What’s important to me as a consumer is I want to support the producers of the original region, not much else.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#47

Post by unishark »

danielscrubs wrote: post #33

I'd love to try a Chicago-style pizza, but can't find it anywhere in my country and I'd have absolutely zero qualms about US protecting that (hard to export I know, but maybe the ingredients could be restricted?). Maybe it could even be shortened - Can I get a Chicago? I'd also like to try "Crab Mac 'n' Cheese Dog"... One thing is that in US there is always this range of quality. There is only one place in the world…

"Chicago-style pizza" would be ok, according to the article. But not "Chicago pizza" if it wasn't really from Chicago (and if it was protected by law/treaty, which I don't think it is).

New York City feels rather like a foreign country to me, though the range-of-quality observation is indeed true everywhere in the US.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#48

Post by Arnt »

ginko wrote: post #37
Arnt wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in principle, but why would Kraft Foods help develop something that's tied to a part of Michigan instead of something that's tied to Kraft? The US has unusually many large companies and unusually few small ones and farmers, so this question matters.

Ever heard of Unilever or Nestlé?

Of course. But what do you mean to say?

Do, for example, try to suggest that Unilever or Nestlé sells as much "parmesan" in Europe as Kraft sells in the US? (I mention parmesan and Kraft because the article does — feel free to substitute any other product/conglomerate pair.)

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#49

Post by rodelrod »

I was once offered a bottle of California "Port". I have nothing against them making the stuff, and I'm even willing to admit that some people will like it. However, Port it was not. In fact it was further from Port than many other old-world fortified wines I know.

If Madeira, Jerez or Malaga didn't feel the need to name their wines "Port" (and they shouldn't because they can certainly stand on their own!) I don't see why California producers shouldn't come up with their own designation and see how it fares in the market.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#50

Post by dopidopHN »

anoncake wrote: post #35
dopidopHN wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cybernetic again, cheese is more than the sum of its part. I’m only half joking. Plus, for some recipe the food that the cow ate and the altitude do make a difference in the output. I’m all for other places making cheese and whatnot. But when you buy the said cheese to find the exact taste you know since childhood, and that you miss in the exotic land you are living as a adult… You can be picky on the product. I want…

You ignored > but let's assume that you can make sheep milk in Australia that has the same properties as Greek sheep milk.

I thought it was encompass in « more than the sum of its part ». The milk is core, the process is key, the conservation and timing is deceptively important.

You might feed the same breed of cow the same altitude grass, at the same season… and still end up with a different product.

But I see your point, and I think it’s a reasonable one. It’s possible to duplicate a cheese making process and be successful ( or wine: California comes to mind )

But that might be tricky, and maybe i don’t want to be disappointed so I will go with the Geographical indicators label. It’s a safe bet.

A sister response to my earlier comment bring a good point. Sometime you want to patronize a particular region for sentimental reasons.

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