Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S. • Hacker News Board

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#41

Post by baybal2 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:36 AM UTC

pope_meat wrote: post #2

Why is keeping nice with the Saudi family so important? Why does the US government bend over backwards to cover up for them?

> Why is keeping nice with the Saudi family so important? Why does the US government bend over backwards to cover up for them?

Because they spawn outfits who ram airplanes into skyscrapers. I see no logic in this, but some "expert geopolitical strategists" do. Same with Israel, sinks USS Liberty, and then people on the hill go orgasmic, because "higher meaning" — whatever that means.

A simpler explanation which seems to be much more believable: great amounts of money spent by them to keep the whole US political establishment wined, dined, well moneyed, and happy.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#42

Post by LatteLazy » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:42 AM UTC

There seems to be a "perpetual surprise" around Saudi Arabia. Its a shitty regime, we support, train, arm and cover for their shitty behaviour. That's how it is. We're 2nd-order responsible for crushing any move towards democracy, for radicalising the population, for the horrific treatment for women and lgbt+, for their war against Yeman, all of it. None of this should be "news" any more than its news that the navy had ships.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#43

Post by LatteLazy » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:45 AM UTC

pope_meat wrote: post #2

Why is keeping nice with the Saudi family so important? Why does the US government bend over backwards to cover up for them?

Who do you think finances US debt, public and private?

Who do you think pours money into defense contractors, financial services and politicians pockets?

Who do we rely on to control the oil price for us?

Who else is an important ally in the region for Israel?

I dispise the Saudis, we should drop them and warm up to Iran, but that above 3 points are why no one has done it yet (plus momentum/tradition).

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#44

Post by saiya-jin » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:04 AM UTC

throwaway210222 wrote: post #34

Does America's ex-military personnel really teach people to dismember bodies? Is that an actual course, or did foreign psychopaths (albeit with state department approval) get training in actual military stuff (shooting, ironing beds, polishing boots, logistics, etc.) and then go on all by themselves to butcher journalists with a carving knife? I don't see the link here, other than a bit or outrage and a wee dopamine…

Torture is/was definitely part of even standard military training ie prior to Vietnam deployment for common soldiers. Electric wires on genitalia for example. I would expect that if one dictator sends their spec-ops personnel for US training, the goal is not to improve their techniques of ironing beds or polishing boots, rather more practical topics useful to that dictator.

I can easily see how an additional training in torture, logistics etc. could have helped perpetrators organize and perform the act. Although they would probably managed to kill him even without it in some way or the other.

One of the things I would hate if living in US - not such a great feeling knowing some part of your taxes goes into directly supporting things like this, whether you like it or not...

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#45

Post by mxxc » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:06 AM UTC

reducesuffering wrote: post #32

cycomanic wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is if there is a conflict between economic and and "ethical" interests the economic interest always won (let's not even get into all the political reasons why totalitarian regimes were supported). The US (and much of the west by extension) certainly has a very spotty history of supporting democracy, especially if it was in their economic interest to support the totalitarian regime.

The US supporting democracy (or atleast classical liberal enlightenment values that would eventually lead to a functioning democracy) in Vietnam, Iraq, Korea, Syria, Afghanistan, and more has by far been a net negative economic interest. We've paid dearly while Europe mostly enjoyed social welfare benefits.

Let's not confuse payments with loans (Europe is not Israel). Let's also not ignore the fact that there have been plenty of analyses showing that post-WWII Europe showed a natural recovery independent of US aid in several countries, and let's not ignore the shackles imposed by the winning powers on several technologies, not to be developed further.

This statement is also incorrect when referred to several key places the US have picked over the years (e.g. Pinochet's Chile or Syngman Rhee / Park Chung-Hee's Korea), and of course looking at the constant heavy military occupation of several "allied" countries, a fact without precedents in history, rather than the fable of "exporting democracy" this just looks like version 2.0 of the British Empire :)

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#46

Post by f6v » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:09 AM UTC

SkyMarshal wrote: post #8

michael1999 wrote: post #3

I clicked expecting to enjoy another public black eye for the School of the Americas, and instead I’m left with dread that the USA has privatized that training. Because of course you have.

If it makes you feel any better, many US citizens hate it too. It's stupid both to privatize the military, and to provide military training to repressive authoritarian regimes. America and our democratic allies spent half a century fighting totalitarianism, only to turn around and treat the post-Cold War "peace dividend" as carte-blance to sell out everything we had just finished fighting for. Now authoritarianism is…

> America and our democratic allies spent half a century fighting totalitarianism

Maybe they weren't fighting totalitarianism in the first place.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#47

Post by f6v » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:13 AM UTC

reducesuffering wrote: post #32

cycomanic wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is if there is a conflict between economic and and "ethical" interests the economic interest always won (let's not even get into all the political reasons why totalitarian regimes were supported). The US (and much of the west by extension) certainly has a very spotty history of supporting democracy, especially if it was in their economic interest to support the totalitarian regime.

The US supporting democracy (or atleast classical liberal enlightenment values that would eventually lead to a functioning democracy) in Vietnam, Iraq, Korea, Syria, Afghanistan, and more has by far been a net negative economic interest. We've paid dearly while Europe mostly enjoyed social welfare benefits.

> has by far been a net negative economic interest

Yeah, maybe for the population of those countries and the US budget. But think of all the military suppliers, they must be very happy!

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#48

Post by throwaway210222 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:23 AM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #44

throwaway210222 wrote: post #34

Does America's ex-military personnel really teach people to dismember bodies? Is that an actual course, or did foreign psychopaths (albeit with state department approval) get training in actual military stuff (shooting, ironing beds, polishing boots, logistics, etc.) and then go on all by themselves to butcher journalists with a carving knife? I don't see the link here, other than a bit or outrage and a wee dopamine…

Torture is/was definitely part of even standard military training ie prior to Vietnam deployment for common soldiers. Electric wires on genitalia for example. I would expect that if one dictator sends their spec-ops personnel for US training, the goal is not to improve their techniques of ironing beds or polishing boots, rather more practical topics useful to that dictator. I can easily see how an additional training…

Sure, but I just cannot for the life of figure me out, how adults (the Saudi operatives) needed to go on the American course to work out that they can kill someone an chop him up with a really sharp knife.

You only need to have one barbeque at your home to work that out.

If training → crimes, then surely we should be more worried about training Saudi butchers and chefs?

The real and IMO only reason the crime occurred as it did is that the Saudi's guessed correctly that the US (and others) would let them get away with it.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#49

Post by emptyfile » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:26 AM UTC

bobsil1 wrote: post #9

SkyMarshal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For most of recent history they've been a major supplier of oil to the US. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=m...

They aren’t anymore, are more dependent on US weapons and parts than vice versa

Nah, rich Arabs always diversify their weapons suppliers. If the US doesn't want to earn tens of billions of dollars there's always France, Russia, etc.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#50

Post by ReptileMan » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:27 AM UTC

throwaway210222 wrote: post #34

Does America's ex-military personnel really teach people to dismember bodies? Is that an actual course, or did foreign psychopaths (albeit with state department approval) get training in actual military stuff (shooting, ironing beds, polishing boots, logistics, etc.) and then go on all by themselves to butcher journalists with a carving knife? I don't see the link here, other than a bit or outrage and a wee dopamine…

Khashoggi was no mere journalist. There is a simple rule in dictatorship governments that the head of the opposition media is even more trusted and loyal person than the people heading the official party media.

He was a bit like Litvinenko - not nice, but not worth shedding too much tears for him.