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The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

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Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#41

Post by edgyquant »

Spooky23 wrote: post #25
einarvollset wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, something like 1/3rd of all the vegetables and 2/3rds of all the fruit in the US is grown in California. Where do you propose this gets grown instead?

My neighbor growing up had a 300 acre vegetable farm. Now defunct as the family couldn’t compete with subsidized Western and Canadian agriculture.

I doubt it’s just western farms. I’m from the Midwest, my mom grew up on a farm and she ended up selling that land, pretty much 90% of family owned farms went bankrupt in favor of corporate farms that benefit from economies of scale. I actually think it’s something like 95% of farms are now owned by corporations.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#43

Post by fersho311 »

Spooky23 wrote: post #29
einarvollset wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only 5% of CA water is urban use, then surely the subsidy is minimal. Also - driving the Central Valley I see no end of “Congress stole our water” signs, so clearly some change is happening. Why can’t agriculture in more rain prone areas compete?

The miracle of the desert is truly a miracle. Sunny warm California is a farmers dream, except for the lack of water.

Adding some facts to this, because California tends to get hot frequently. When it gets too hot, plants slow (and eventually stop) photosynthesis above 68 degrees F

https://sciencing.com/effect-temperature-rate-photosynthesis...

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#44

Post by zdragnar »

0x0nyandesu wrote: post #31
einarvollset wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only 5% of CA water is urban use, then surely the subsidy is minimal. Also - driving the Central Valley I see no end of “Congress stole our water” signs, so clearly some change is happening. Why can’t agriculture in more rain prone areas compete?

The rain prone areas are too cold for much of the year.

Or too hot. Lots of crops grown on california would be happy in Georgia if not for the heat.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#45

Post by sbierwagen »

dboreham wrote: post #35
sbierwagen wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans managed to scrape along for ten thousand years without the ability to eat fresh fruit and vegetables at any time of the year. I think doubling the price of an apple in exchange for Los Angeles to continue to exist is an okay tradeoff.

Yes but there weren't this many people for the last ten thousand years.

Sure?

According to https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10339 the US used 5.38 billion bushels of corn to produce ethanol in 2019.

A bushel is 56 pounds of grain. 87,696 calories. Assume a human needs 2500 calories a day, times 365 days per year. 912,500 calories. About 10.4 bushels of corn. Feed about 517 million people just with the corn the US wastes to make a few thousand Iowa voters happy.

The world is not short of food.

(Although once you start talking about synthetic fertilizers needed to grow that corn...)

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#46

Post by GavinMcG »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #17
GavinMcG wrote: post #6

Yet Maricopa County, Arizona (Phoenix) had more growth from 2010 to 2019 than any other county in the U.S.[0] Clark County, Nevada (Las Vegas) wasn't far behind. [0] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2020/pop-esti...

Arizona today is using less water now than it did in the 50s, despite that massive increase in population. There's hope that by the end of the decade it will be entirely groundwater neutral. The population is not really the issue, especially given that domestic usage isn't anywhere close to the largest consumer.

That's good, since it sounds like there's less water available than there was in the 50s. Still, it strikes me that even if Arizona isn't itself a disproportionate consumer, being between the water source and even larger consumers (i.e. Southern California) it's set up to be in a tough position.

Also, regardless of water availability, the other concerns of climate change are going to affect people living there. There are substantial wildfires every year, and not all that far from (expanding) communities in the Phoenix area, for example.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#47

Post by reedjosh »

Spooky23 wrote: post #25
einarvollset wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, something like 1/3rd of all the vegetables and 2/3rds of all the fruit in the US is grown in California. Where do you propose this gets grown instead?

My neighbor growing up had a 300 acre vegetable farm. Now defunct as the family couldn’t compete with subsidized Western and Canadian agriculture.

Subsidies bad. Only encourages low quality monocrops that themselves are unhealthy and destroy soil health.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#48

Post by klipklop »

sbierwagen wrote: post #33
einarvollset wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, something like 1/3rd of all the vegetables and 2/3rds of all the fruit in the US is grown in California. Where do you propose this gets grown instead?

Humans managed to scrape along for ten thousand years without the ability to eat fresh fruit and vegetables at any time of the year. I think doubling the price of an apple in exchange for Los Angeles to continue to exist is an okay tradeoff.

Humans also used to commonly starve to death as well.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#49

Post by hasmanean »

0x0nyandesu wrote: post #31
einarvollset wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only 5% of CA water is urban use, then surely the subsidy is minimal. Also - driving the Central Valley I see no end of “Congress stole our water” signs, so clearly some change is happening. Why can’t agriculture in more rain prone areas compete?

The rain prone areas are too cold for much of the year.

Hydroponics allow you grow crops in PVC pipes with a lot less water wastage and theoretically maybe even move them around on trucks. You could grow something on a parking lot.

Could be the future if climate change results in unpredictable weather and you don’t want to lose your crop to an early frost.

Northern Ontario has tons of lakes, nice summers and lots of rock to anchor humongous hydroponic towers to.

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