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The global chip shortage is creating a new problem: More fake components

zdnet.com

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Re: The global chip shortage is creating a new problem: More fake components

#41

Post by tzs »

catern wrote: post #14
deelowe wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to be certain that those chips will comply with the specs and they will taint the supply chain. Traceability is extremely important in the hardware business.

That may be true - I'm not a hardware engineer. But it's interesting that that sounds exactly like the propaganda that proprietary software vendors used to use to warn against open source software - you don't know what you're getting, you have no guarantee it will work, etc.

The difference is that as far as I can recall there weren't people trying to pass off open source as someone else's proprietary software. You didn't think you were buying a copy of Oracle's DB or Microsoft Office and actually get a wrapper around MySQL or a restyled Open Office.

You choose whether your wanted the propriety program or the open source program, fully aware that they were different programs with different abilities, features, limitations, and bugs. You could compare them and decide which suits your needs better and then reliably obtain that one.

With hardware the fakes are being sold as the genuine part. You really don't know what you are getting and really don't know if it follows the spec. You might for example think you are buying a 3.3 V microcontroller that has 5 V tolerant input pins (meaning you can hook it straight up to a 5 V sensor you are using), but the fake is not 5 V tolerant and won't work for you unless you add a level shifter to your design.

There was an article submitted to HN nearly a year ago [1] about fake/counterfeit DS18B20 temperature sensors. That article gives a good look at all the different kind of chips you might end up with when you think you are buying a DS18B20, with lots of details on how they differ from the real ones.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23815839

Re: The global chip shortage is creating a new problem: More fake components

#42

Post by jtbayly »

kzrdude wrote: post #35
zsmi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which means, unfortunately, that you actually have a $100 coffee maker, and not a $30 coffee maker, then.

Disregarding chip shortage, this sounds like a reasonable outcome after the pandemic anyway. Somewhere, all that money that was lost needs to be recuperated - partly in inflation.

Why does “lost money” need to be recuperated?

That doesn’t sound necessary at all.

What does sound reasonable is that supply and demand change the prices of things.

Re: The global chip shortage is creating a new problem: More fake components

#43

Post by [deleted] »

choeger wrote: post #3
technothrasher wrote: post #2

We were just having this discussion at work last week, as we are a low volume manufacturer and are starting to see many of our ICs dry up at the major distributors. We're looking at smaller unknown distributors and Chinese companies on eBay and wondering how do we know we'll get what we order. There doesn't seem much area between the two choices of ordering with our fingers crossed or telling our customers we cannot…

Shouldn't you be able to test an IC?

[deleted]

Re: The global chip shortage is creating a new problem: More fake components

#44

Post by zsmi »

tgv wrote: post #38
zsmi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which means, unfortunately, that you actually have a $100 coffee maker, and not a $30 coffee maker, then.

Why not $66?

I didn't actually calculate anything, so there's no precise answer, but the high level answer is, all the middle men want their cut too.

Re: The global chip shortage is creating a new problem: More fake components

#45

Post by imtringued »

kzrdude wrote: post #35
zsmi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which means, unfortunately, that you actually have a $100 coffee maker, and not a $30 coffee maker, then.

Disregarding chip shortage, this sounds like a reasonable outcome after the pandemic anyway. Somewhere, all that money that was lost needs to be recuperated - partly in inflation.

No, that's not the type of inflation that benefits anyone.

Stagflation is what happens when you have a supply shock (usually natural disaster, political instability, bans or outright wars). Prices go up but incomes do not because nobody is being hired.

For example, when you ban recreational drugs, the cost of drugs goes up as the supply dries up. At some point you can't raise prices anymore and the dealers start cutting the drug with whatever they have available like fentanyl.

What we need is an inflation cycle closer to this ideal: consumers start buying products -> productive companies start earning more -> companies start producing more products -> companies hire more workers -> companies raise wages -> new consumers enter the market that start buying products. Once you reach full employment you raise interest rates to calm the market down and then everything is perfectly fine.

Restaurants are one of the few places where we see the "good" type of inflation because it is resulting in higher wages.

Re: The global chip shortage is creating a new problem: More fake components

#46

Post by MarkusWandel »

Counterfeit chips can be a hazard even at the hobbyist level. I've had 2.5A rated DC/DC converters from Ali Express that, if overloaded, enter thermal runaway, and fake MAX232 devices that on any given powerup, have a single-digit percentage risk of the charge pump locking up and getting so hot that you can burn your fingers on them - thermal runaway again.

Apparently a lot of the AVR328s on low-end Arduinos (which are still useful, despite much better microcontrollers existing now) are fake too, though I've never had a problem with one.

Re: The global chip shortage is creating a new problem: More fake components

#47

Post by mvanaltvorst »

BobbyJo wrote: post #37

I honestly hope some good comes out of the shortage. Like, maybe some products that never needed any electronics get made without them again, or things that have entire computers built into them just go back to a few basic controllers. A good OLED TV that is just a panel and doesn't come with a slow horrible computer built in would be nice.

My guess would be the exact opposite: current chip shortage has lead to billions of USD more put into new fabs and R&D. I think/hope the market will overreact to this shortage, and I'm excited to see what we will be able to do with all those new faster ultra-low cost microcontrollers in 5-10 years.

Re: The global chip shortage is creating a new problem: More fake components

#48

Post by kzrdude »

imtringued wrote: post #45
kzrdude wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disregarding chip shortage, this sounds like a reasonable outcome after the pandemic anyway. Somewhere, all that money that was lost needs to be recuperated - partly in inflation.

No, that's not the type of inflation that benefits anyone. Stagflation is what happens when you have a supply shock (usually natural disaster, political instability, bans or outright wars). Prices go up but incomes do not because nobody is being hired. For example, when you ban recreational drugs, the cost of drugs goes up as the supply dries up. At some point you can't raise prices anymore and the dealers start cutt…

Ah, I didn't meant it as something I think we "need" or what I "like" -- just what I think is coming. Governments have used a lot of money to pay for things: the supply of money has been diluted heavily, and this together with other effects like decreased productivity, will lead to inflation.

Re: The global chip shortage is creating a new problem: More fake components

#49

Post by kzrdude »

jtbayly wrote: post #42
kzrdude wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disregarding chip shortage, this sounds like a reasonable outcome after the pandemic anyway. Somewhere, all that money that was lost needs to be recuperated - partly in inflation.

Why does “lost money” need to be recuperated? That doesn’t sound necessary at all. What does sound reasonable is that supply and demand change the prices of things.

Supply and demand example: governments have created a lot of money to pay for extraordinary expenses in 2020 and 2021. Supply of money is now greater and this leads to rising prices (i.e. inflation).

What I mean by recuperation: We don't create more value just from creating money. So if there is more money to go around but the same amount of goods produced, that leads to inflation. We're talking about inflation to adjust for the money created to cover expenses.

Re: The global chip shortage is creating a new problem: More fake components

#50

Post by JamesLeonis »

sandworm101 wrote: post #20

counterfeit /= fake. A fake chip is a chip that isn't physically what it claims to be. It will not work properly. A counterfeit chip is one that was not made under appropriate licenses. It might be exactly the same as the legit chips. It might even come from the same factory line that makes the legit chips and have been tested right alongside legit chips. The only difference between a counterfeit and legit chip can b…

Reading the article, it's full of scare words like "could" and "will" with a noticeable dearth of evidence. Not to bury the lede, but one of the main sources of the article (Steve Calabria) is a component distributor, as well as a representative of the industry group representing component distributors. [0]

From the article:

> As part of his research, Das regularly monitors counterfeit reporting databases like ERAI, and although it is too early to notice a surge, he is confident that the number of reports will start growing in the next six months as companies realize they have been sold illegal parts.

Further down:

> Although only based on his own observations, Calabria is also convinced that this is only the start of a wave of counterfeit semiconductors creeping into the market. "I think we are on the cusp of a major problem here. The worldwide shortages have opened the door for criminals to exploit the electronic component marketplace, and I'm seeing early signs this has already started to happen," Calabria tells ZDNet.

[0]: https://www.idofea.org/membership/member-list.html

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