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Etymology of the Word “Lord”

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Re: Etymology of the Word “Lord”

#41

Post by stevula »

Derek_Mudaxe wrote: post #33
stevula wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English does not descend form Old Norse (a North Germanic language). It was merely influenced by it due to Viking invasions of the British isles. English is a West Germanic language more closely related to Frisian.

Old English is definitely West Germanic. It's much less clear whether Middle and current English can be considered more West Germanic or more North Germanic; there's still a debate raging on.

There’s not really a debate among linguists. No amount of Old Norse loan words can justify reclassifying English as North Germanic.

As far as grammar and syntax are concerned, Old Norse had some interesting effects such as influencing leveling of noun declensions but generally these are just simplifications of native English grammar and not imports from Norse (which had a full on conjugation system). The borrowing of certain Norse pronouns into English is probably one of the most extraordinary changes.

Another angle is to look at sound changes. English has shared sound changes with other West Germanic languages, while there are sound changes in North Germanic that English lacks. Compare the initial consonant cluster in West Germanic words for shield:

shield / schild (Dutch) / Schild (German)

Versus North Germanic:

skjold (Danish) / skjöldur (Icelandic) / skydda (Swedish)

There are some people who argue Middle English is a creole [1] due to the massive influences from Norman and Old Norse but to say it’s North Germanic (or even Romance?) is pretty incredible. The implication would be that the British Isles spoke a form of Old Norse which absorbed almost all the features of Old English, which is not what our written records show. My understanding is that even the creole theory is not widely accepted among linguists due to some features of creoles that are missing in English (e.g. standardization of irregular verbs, irregular plural nouns, …).

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English_creole_hypothes...

Re: Etymology of the Word “Lord”

#42

Post by Derek_Mudaxe »

stevula wrote: post #41
Derek_Mudaxe wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Old English is definitely West Germanic. It's much less clear whether Middle and current English can be considered more West Germanic or more North Germanic; there's still a debate raging on.

There’s not really a debate among linguists. No amount of Old Norse loan words can justify reclassifying English as North Germanic. As far as grammar and syntax are concerned, Old Norse had some interesting effects such as influencing leveling of noun declensions but generally these are just simplifications of native English grammar and not imports from Norse (which had a full on conjugation system). The borrowing of…

It is still a contested topic among linguists, I keep seeing newly published articles about it. The debate's mainly around whether the standard used for Middle English writing is Anglicised Norse versus Norsified Old English. I've seen strong arguments for both views. If you know English history or know English dialects then viewing some types of English as Anglicised Norse would not be surprising.

Re: Etymology of the Word “Lord”

#43

Post by kebman »

Derek_Mudaxe wrote: post #9
kebman wrote: post #2

Bread in Russian means хлеб (khleb), and in Bulgarian хляб (khlyab). IMHO not so different from Old English hlaf. In Norwegian we use the word loff for white and soft bread, and as far as I know Brits call it a loaf of bread. But everyday bread is just brød in Norwegian, which is of course very similar to the English word bread. Interestingly I know Life of Boris likes his бутерброд (buterbrod), which is basically a…

A slice of bread with butter is not a sandwich, it's just bread and butter or buttered bread. Sandwich is a placename, sandy vik, the food item is named after an earl/eoarl/yarl/jarl (take your pick).

Just slap the колбаса on the bread instead of your face, and there's your sandwich!

Re: Etymology of the Word “Lord”

#44

Post by kebman »

progre wrote: post #20
throwaway894345 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you like grain and etymology, you might like the etymology of “barn”: > barn (n.): "covered building for the storage of farm produce," Old English bereærn "barn," literally "barley house," from bere "barley" (see barley) + aern "house," metathesized from rann, rasn (source also of Old Norse rann "large house," Gothic razn "house," Old English rest "resting place"). For the formation, compare Old English sealtærn "…

And "tun" (enclosure, in Swedish the word means the space between farmhouses on a farm) is the root of the english word "town".

The Scandinavian usage of tun is akin to a courtyard, or the open space between a (small and fenced in) collection of houses. Again a courtyard can be traced to Middle Lower German hof, and even onwards to Proto-Germanic hufą, which is cognate with the Scandinavian word for head. And indeed if you want to say "the main part" in Danish or Norwegian you'd say hoveddelen. Hoff additionally means a royal court in Norwegian. On the other hand, the easiest cognate of this word in English is probably that of a horse hoof, which makes sense because such a tun is usually a stamped hard by both humans and their cattle.

Re: Etymology of the Word “Lord”

#45

Post by CRConrad »

mdturnerphys wrote: post #4
kebman wrote: post #2

Bread in Russian means хлеб (khleb), and in Bulgarian хляб (khlyab). IMHO not so different from Old English hlaf. In Norwegian we use the word loff for white and soft bread, and as far as I know Brits call it a loaf of bread. But everyday bread is just brød in Norwegian, which is of course very similar to the English word bread. Interestingly I know Life of Boris likes his бутерброд (buterbrod), which is basically a…

Yes, the Slavic "хлеб", etc., appear to be cognates with the Germanic "loaf", etc. Wiktionary [0] says they both come from Proto-Germanic "hlaibaz" (reconstructed [1]). [0] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/loaf#Etymology_1 [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Reconstructed_term...

> Proto-Germanic "hlaibaz"

Still there in modern German for "loaf": "Laib".

Re: Etymology of the Word “Lord”

#46

Post by kybernetikos »

asveikau wrote: post #11

Old English has that quality where you can squint at it being a modern English speaker and it almost makes sense. "Loaf ward" sounds like a fair description, if clumsy, of somebody who guards bread. But then "ward" is often a building or section, or, a minor under protection. Maybe "warden" keeps the meaning while being etymologically similar. Edit: after a bit of googling it seems that ward and warden are cognates (…

And of course 'wardrobe', something to guard your robe.

Re: Etymology of the Word “Lord”

#47

Post by kebman »

beebeepka wrote: post #16
kebman wrote: post #2

Bread in Russian means хлеб (khleb), and in Bulgarian хляб (khlyab). IMHO not so different from Old English hlaf. In Norwegian we use the word loff for white and soft bread, and as far as I know Brits call it a loaf of bread. But everyday bread is just brød in Norwegian, which is of course very similar to the English word bread. Interestingly I know Life of Boris likes his бутерброд (buterbrod), which is basically a…

It's actually "hlyab" / "hleb", without the extra "k". We are not Arabs. On a related note, an old friend of mine was really into Norwegian back in the day. He used to say Norwegian is very similar to English. Is that true?

> It's actually "hlyab" / "hleb", without the extra "k".

Not to worry, it's just transliterated like that because it's a velar fricative, sort of like—but not completely similar to—the Ch-sound in the German word ach. In any case I think you'll agree that it's pretty distinct from the breathy H-sound commonly found in Germanic languages.

> He used to say Norwegian is very similar to English. Is that true?

Yes and no. Bessides both being Germanic languages, English has a ton of Germanic loan-words from the viking age, and indeed older related words from the Saxons themselves. This makes part of the languages familiar to each other, and thus easier to learn. But really, the thing that makes English the most easy to learn for Scandinavians is the lack of dubbing on British and American films and TV shows over here. Being smaller nations, it's viewed as more economic to simply subtitle foreign shows. On the other hand, the guys who seems to have the easiest time learning Norwegian, outside other Scandinavians, are the Dutch. On the other hand English has way more Latin and French loanwords than in Scandinavian (though, granted, Swedish probably have more modern French loanwords due to their French lineage king).

You've got a similar situation, if you picture the different Slavic languages, such as Polish vs Bulgarian. I bet you think Bulgarian is easier to learn than Polish. Correct me if I'm wrong. :)

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