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Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

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Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#41

Post by vincnetas »

timdaub wrote: post #10
mrtksn wrote: post #4

The strictly limited amount of BTC makes this into a land grab. First comers are entitled to the services of the real economy due to their virtue of being first(or lucky to be on the right place at the right tweet). Musk is right on this one: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1401251430015582209?s=21 Unlike fiat money, BTC is not an accounting tool for value exchange. Unlike actual land, it doesn’t have any intrins…

The intrinsic value argument is a funny one. What's the idea behind it? Assume you have asset X but then one key assmption fails. Now, is asset X still valuable considering the failed assumption? For land, you can say that even in the case that society collapses it is still valuable. Or is it? What exactly is the assumption that deems BTC's intrinsic value zero and land's value more than zero?

I think about this through basic needs of human being. Food and shelter. Can i use land to get some of my basic needs if there is nothing else around? Probably yes. Can i use bitcoin for that. Not likely.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#42

Post by mcosta »

solotronics wrote: post #17
timdaub wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intrinsic value argument is a funny one. What's the idea behind it? Assume you have asset X but then one key assmption fails. Now, is asset X still valuable considering the failed assumption? For land, you can say that even in the case that society collapses it is still valuable. Or is it? What exactly is the assumption that deems BTC's intrinsic value zero and land's value more than zero?

Land ownership is a totally abstract idea anyways it's just been a thing for longer.

That is why mankind has waged war for millennia

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#43

Post by nroets »

mrtksn wrote: post #4

The strictly limited amount of BTC makes this into a land grab. First comers are entitled to the services of the real economy due to their virtue of being first(or lucky to be on the right place at the right tweet). Musk is right on this one: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1401251430015582209?s=21 Unlike fiat money, BTC is not an accounting tool for value exchange. Unlike actual land, it doesn’t have any intrins…

The problem with BTC is not the accounting aspect. Some parts of the financial system (like option traders) have learned to do accounting in highly volatile situations.

The problem is that BTC gained it's intangible value differently from a normal fiat currency and it can loose it again. See https://bitcoin.isnot.money

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#44

Post by grey-area »

gjulianm wrote: post #33
dangero wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forget Lightning— Did you know you can transfer Bitcoin from one user to another on Coinbase with zero transaction fees instantly? Any exchange can do the same. Centralized layer two scales just fine for many use cases and is working today.

But then why use Bitcoin if you're going to use what is essentially a bank?

Not just a bank but an unregulated bank tied to all sorts of shady currencies like USDC, Doge etc which has regular outages. That's also ignoring the wild volatility in the value of bitcoin.

What could possibly go wrong!

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#45

Post by [deleted] »

Hamuko wrote: post #16
Cyclone_ wrote: post #3

I know you have the option to convert to USD, but haven't seen yet if there would be any fee to doing so. Also, it might be difficult to get every merchant in the country to be able to accept bitcoin. The other thought I had was if they would start accepting other crypto as well if this works out.

> Also, it might be difficult to get every merchant in the country to be able to accept bitcoin. How's the Internet infrastructure in El Salvador?

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#46

Post by mrtksn »

timdaub wrote: post #27
mrtksn wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ownership is abstract, there are communities where the concept is rejected but the land has intrinsic value regardless of the claims of those who use it. Capitalist, Communist or Anarchist - the land doesn’t care, it grows the tomatoes the same way.

Surely if you look via godmode on earth, you can even ascribe intrinsic value to it in the case of complet societal collapse where there's only tribes fighting for tomatoes. But is that a useful view?

Coins in WoW have a value, anything can have a value. The problem is that these are in abstractions many levels over the biological processes that the life is based on.

The core of the human life is based on people processing materials to sustain biological processes and the rest of the humanity is built on top of it.

Intrinsic value comes from the ability to support that structure. At the top of the structure there are the higher ideals, like art and happiness and people who produce these are often rewarded with the goods from the bottom of the pyramid.

The problem with the BTC's "early adopters get rewarded extremely well and are entitled to all the goods for a liftime and generations to come" nature makes an extremely top heavy structure.

If that becomes a reality I suspect that a rubber hose cryptography breakthrough event will occur. After all, whoever has the private key, has the coins and the private key is transferable by force.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#47

Post by willnz »

gjulianm wrote: post #33
dangero wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forget Lightning— Did you know you can transfer Bitcoin from one user to another on Coinbase with zero transaction fees instantly? Any exchange can do the same. Centralized layer two scales just fine for many use cases and is working today.

But then why use Bitcoin if you're going to use what is essentially a bank?

Once you have BTC you can choose to store it outside of a bank as a non-inflationary asset. No one can remove it from your wallet.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#48

Post by pinkybanana »

onion2k wrote: post #34
dangero wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forget Lightning— Did you know you can transfer Bitcoin from one user to another on Coinbase with zero transaction fees instantly? Any exchange can do the same. Centralized layer two scales just fine for many use cases and is working today.

Isn't that exactly what FreeTrade meant by " Salvadorians will end up forced to use proprietary payment networks denominated in BTC. "? Coinbase might do it for free, but that doesn't mean the eventual winner will be free, nor does it mean that users couldn't be banned, or tracked, or forced to use 'supported' services, etc.

As long as BTC transfers between custodians are possible, that should be quite small problem. There might be winner in terms of liquidity and volume, but because anyone can quite easily fire up custodian service, there should be also plenty of competition.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#49

Post by echelon »

pinkybanana wrote: post #31
lottin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that the process of bitcoin adoption is in fact a massive huge wealth-redistribution mechanism between adopters. Making people extraordinarily rich just because they were the first to buy a new currency and other people extraordinarily poor just because they were the last isn't probably something most people would agree with.

> just because they were the last isn't probably something most people would agree with. Most people also don't agree on huge salaries and bonuses for CEO's, in practice the people with money are willing to pay those perks. When people vote with their wallets, does it really matter what the people not voting are going to say?

CEOs, at least, tend to work at companies that add value to the world. Usually.

Bitcoin adds anonymous violence, increased CO2 emissions, and subtracts brilliant minds that could be working on more important problems.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#50

Post by lottin »

pinkybanana wrote: post #31
lottin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that the process of bitcoin adoption is in fact a massive huge wealth-redistribution mechanism between adopters. Making people extraordinarily rich just because they were the first to buy a new currency and other people extraordinarily poor just because they were the last isn't probably something most people would agree with.

> just because they were the last isn't probably something most people would agree with. Most people also don't agree on huge salaries and bonuses for CEO's, in practice the people with money are willing to pay those perks. When people vote with their wallets, does it really matter what the people not voting are going to say?

It certainly matters if you don't want to live in fear for the rest of your life. Because if you think for a minute that the level of violence that would ensue would not be monumental you're kidding yourself.
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