Bunnyhopping from the Programmer's Perspective (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: Bunnyhopping from the Programmer's Perspective (2015)

#41

Post by beebeepka » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #21

I have played FPS games for as long as they have existed, competitively in the early days of CS. I don’t see why adding this feature deliberately would be appealing. It makes the game look unnatural for what? There are tons of hard to use glitches in every FPS game and the policy on any enjoyable server is “no glitching”, that is - play the game as the developer intended or be kicked. This bug was just too widely use…

Huh, and here I was thinking competitive FPS was a thing way before CS was even a mod, let alone mature and popular for tournaments

Re: Bunnyhopping from the Programmer's Perspective (2015)

#42

Post by smoldesu » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

IQunder130 wrote: post #15

The thing I don't understand is why you would limit velocity in such a strange way to begin with.

If you think that's stupid, wait until you see how to Bunnyhop in Half Life 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfRIMwWbyrQ

Re: Bunnyhopping from the Programmer's Perspective (2015)

#43

Post by smoldesu » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

a-nikolaev wrote: post #2

The described way of increasing maximum velocity does not look realistic, it is not based in any kind of physics or bio-mechanics. So, is it a suggestion to implement a broken game mechanic.. so that experienced players can transfer their skill to other FPS games? Nice..

A game mechanic is only broken if it isn't fun. Otherwise, the issue is with the player.

Re: Bunnyhopping from the Programmer's Perspective (2015)

#44

Post by lmilcin » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #38

lmilcin wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in Quake this was not deliberate choice. It was fortunate accident. It took some time for people to discover bunny hopping and once somebody figured it out it took like a storm. Hopping wasn't discovered immediately. I remember we were doing things like strafing into walls to speed up movement before we knew bunny hops are possible. I don't think idSoftware predicted how the game would be used when they were…

I also think most people discovered trimping before bunnyhopping, which is kinda surprising given how dependent it is on acceleration.

I think it took couple (2?) years before bunnyhopping was discovered. We knew there is a lot of funny things happening with physics in the game but nobody put them together.

We knew, that there is maximum forward and sidespeed but they way they add together is simple vector addition, so you could actually get higher maximum forward speed if you could point that vector forward.

We knew it is possible to preserve momentum when turning in air. We abused this jumping outside of ledges and then turning and going back to where you came from. This was very useful on dm2 where there is a ledge, a pool of laval and a wall that divides the ledge. You are supposed to press a button to actuate a ramp on which you could cross the lava but you could also just jump and turn in air violating any physical intuition. The jump can be seen here https://youtu.be/VT-johLi75w?t=128. This jump has a bunny hop component to it but it is not necessary.

Re: Bunnyhopping from the Programmer's Perspective (2015)

#45

Post by alkonaut » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

beebeepka wrote: post #41

alkonaut wrote: post #21

I have played FPS games for as long as they have existed, competitively in the early days of CS. I don’t see why adding this feature deliberately would be appealing. It makes the game look unnatural for what? There are tons of hard to use glitches in every FPS game and the policy on any enjoyable server is “no glitching”, that is - play the game as the developer intended or be kicked. This bug was just too widely use…

Huh, and here I was thinking competitive FPS was a thing way before CS was even a mod, let alone mature and popular for tournaments

I think you misinterpreted a timeline here.

Re: Bunnyhopping from the Programmer's Perspective (2015)

#46

Post by pvg » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 5:02 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #21

I have played FPS games for as long as they have existed, competitively in the early days of CS. I don’t see why adding this feature deliberately would be appealing. It makes the game look unnatural for what? There are tons of hard to use glitches in every FPS game and the policy on any enjoyable server is “no glitching”, that is - play the game as the developer intended or be kicked. This bug was just too widely use…

As others have pointed out, a lot of these become important game mechanics and fully incorporated into the game, you can think of it as a kind of serendipitous or accidental design. An example of roughly Quake-vintage is 'skiing' in Tribes, fully incorporated into the game in later versions:

https://tribes.fandom.com/wiki/Skiing

Re: Bunnyhopping from the Programmer's Perspective (2015)

#47

Post by wizzwizz4 » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

IQunder130 wrote: post #32

enriquto wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

accelerations map directly to actions of the user (forces). It seems fairly natural, not strange, to control velocities and positions in terms of accelerations. The same thing happens in real life.

That's not the strange thing. The strange thing is limiting it on a projection rather than the magnitude of the velocity vector.

If you're already calculating the projection, it's cheaper.

Re: Bunnyhopping from the Programmer's Perspective (2015)

#48

Post by oblak » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #24

I much preferred Q2 bunnyhopping to Q3 bunnyhopping, which felt to soft/squishy. Has anyone figured out why the Q2 era bunnyhopping has not been replicated (or has it?)?

Q2 movement is similar but different enough to Q3, that's for sure. But... soft/squishy? I am not sure what you're getting at. Q2 seem to care a bit more about jump timing though. It just never felt right after the first Quake 3 betas hit.

Warsow/Warfork used to be largely Quake 2 based but never felt anything like it. Maybe Nexuis/Xonotic still do?

Re: Bunnyhopping from the Programmer's Perspective (2015)

#49

Post by oblak » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

delusional wrote: post #4

a-nikolaev wrote: post #2

The described way of increasing maximum velocity does not look realistic, it is not based in any kind of physics or bio-mechanics. So, is it a suggestion to implement a broken game mechanic.. so that experienced players can transfer their skill to other FPS games? Nice..

> broken game mechanic Who said games have to be realistic? is it a "broken game mechanic" that you can take a shot to the heart and continue living in counter strike? There's a place for realism in video games, but there's a place where you have to let go of it as well.

Well, lots of people have said that. Used to hear that kind of argument all the time back in the day.

But I've heard even crazier things. I remember a friend's older brother complaining about tournaments NOT forcing everyone to use the same gear and same CFG files. This ~21 years ago. Still have no idea what was this guy's thought process. I guess it was just a non-gamer's expert opinion on gaming.

Dan you imagine not being able to bind keys and/or adjust mouse speed because it's not realistic and unfair?

Re: Bunnyhopping from the Programmer's Perspective (2015)

#50

Post by oblak » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #45

beebeepka wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, and here I was thinking competitive FPS was a thing way before CS was even a mod, let alone mature and popular for tournaments

I think you misinterpreted a timeline here.

Really? Cause I remember attending Quake tournaments before CS was a thing. Things didn't even start with Quake, as there was also Doom. I understand if such games are not to your liking but they did exist