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Kinda a Big Announcement

joelonsoftware.com

41–50 of 130 posts

Re: Kinda a Big Announcement

#41
post #26
post #13

> almost anyone I talk to is too young to imagine The Days Before Stack Overflow, when the bookstore had an entire wall of Java and the way you picked a Rich Text Editor was going to Barnes and Noble and browsing through printed books for an hour, in the Rich Text Editor Component shelf. I remember the "Days Before Stack Overflow" and Joel is giving himself a bit too much credit here. Before SO, when I googled a prob…

I think you might be giving Spolsky a bit too little credit! I remember the days before SO as well, and while you might luck out by finding your answer in some obscure niche blog, there was a relatively high chance that that error message you were staring at wouldn't have an accessible solution online (or at least not one that Google could provide). You could really just get stuck on a problem for a day, or never fin…

How people differ: before SO, I've rarely bought language books because most of them had reference pages readily available. I've learned and used heavily all of Python, Perl, PHP, SQL (with MySQL and Postgresql), a bit of assembly (NASM and GNU as), low-level details of C too (from ISO C9x draft), JavaScript, HTML and CSS and plain TeX, not to mention structures of x86 and VBE programming (I played with writing minimal kernels).

This was all before 2001 while I was in high school, with books being very hard to get in Serbia, so internet was my go to resource.

Now to be honest, even after SO, I only use it as a last resort. Somehow only 1/20th of the problems I hit match what people seem to hit on SO :/

Re: Kinda a Big Announcement

#42
post #13

> almost anyone I talk to is too young to imagine The Days Before Stack Overflow, when the bookstore had an entire wall of Java and the way you picked a Rich Text Editor was going to Barnes and Noble and browsing through printed books for an hour, in the Rich Text Editor Component shelf. I remember the "Days Before Stack Overflow" and Joel is giving himself a bit too much credit here. Before SO, when I googled a prob…

> I remember the "Days Before Stack Overflow"

Yes. In the early 1990s I relied on Usenet's comp.lang hierarchy and the awesome FAQs that accreted there. A thorough reading of these could head off a huge number of problems before they manifested as bugs. Here are some examples [0, 1] to give people the flavour, admittedly from about 10 years after I had moved on.

[0] http://www.faqs.org/faqs/C++-faq/part1/ [1] http://www.faqs.org/faqs/C++-faq/part5/

Re: Kinda a Big Announcement

#43
post #30
post #13

> almost anyone I talk to is too young to imagine The Days Before Stack Overflow, when the bookstore had an entire wall of Java and the way you picked a Rich Text Editor was going to Barnes and Noble and browsing through printed books for an hour, in the Rich Text Editor Component shelf. I remember the "Days Before Stack Overflow" and Joel is giving himself a bit too much credit here. Before SO, when I googled a prob…

To be honest, Google returning SO answers for something that is exactly not what I am looking for instead of language/library reference documentation as it used to is one the most annoying things for me as a developer today. Though I think that's mostly on Google "optimizing" my queries by dumbing them down. As an example, try looking for "python setattr" in your search engine of choice, and look for python.org docum…

I’ve used Google’s custom search engine (cse) to help solve this, when working on a project, just make a cse with the main sources of official docs for the stack you’re using; instead of getting 20 possibly related questions with half solutions that you have to wade through, you get straight to the source docs. I guess it works best when those source docs are good, eg postgres, but it’s certainly been a big win for me

Re: Kinda a Big Announcement

#44
post #13

> almost anyone I talk to is too young to imagine The Days Before Stack Overflow, when the bookstore had an entire wall of Java and the way you picked a Rich Text Editor was going to Barnes and Noble and browsing through printed books for an hour, in the Rich Text Editor Component shelf. I remember the "Days Before Stack Overflow" and Joel is giving himself a bit too much credit here. Before SO, when I googled a prob…

I also remember the "Days Before Stack Overflow" and you're not giving Joel (et al) enough credit. It's not like there wasn't any information on the web; it's just that it wasn't anywhere near as organized or as complete as what you can find today on SO. And what you definitely couldn't be sure of is that you'd ever get an answer to a new question if you couldn't already find it somewhere else. SO really did change that overnight.

Re: Kinda a Big Announcement

#45
post #13

> almost anyone I talk to is too young to imagine The Days Before Stack Overflow, when the bookstore had an entire wall of Java and the way you picked a Rich Text Editor was going to Barnes and Noble and browsing through printed books for an hour, in the Rich Text Editor Component shelf. I remember the "Days Before Stack Overflow" and Joel is giving himself a bit too much credit here. Before SO, when I googled a prob…

Yeah, between various forums and blogs and the later-renamed expertsexchange you could often find answers. It was SO before SO until they started to plaster it with ads.

I've seen plenty of examples on SO where the accepted answers are actually wrong. Not wrong as time has moved on, wrong even at the time. Early SO is especially guilty of this kind of cult of personality that built up around certain people, so whenever they answered they would be given the accepted answer, even if it was wildly incorrect and/or low effort.

It's an incredibly useful resource but it's not as though if it disappeared tomorrow people wouldn't find a way.

Re: Kinda a Big Announcement

#46
post #13

> almost anyone I talk to is too young to imagine The Days Before Stack Overflow, when the bookstore had an entire wall of Java and the way you picked a Rich Text Editor was going to Barnes and Noble and browsing through printed books for an hour, in the Rich Text Editor Component shelf. I remember the "Days Before Stack Overflow" and Joel is giving himself a bit too much credit here. Before SO, when I googled a prob…

Spolsky and Atwood had a podcast when they were putting Stackoverflow together and they talk at length about what they wanted to achieve. Its amazing actually to see they had a very precise idea of what they wanted to do and they absolutely hit their own objective.

Podcast 1, April 2008

https://stackoverflow.fogbugz.com/default.asp?W6

One thing we are noticing is that the book market, the programming book market has just completely vanished. It is falling apart, catastrophically. The programmers I know don't really learn new technologies from a book any more. What they do is they find a tutorial on the web -- maybe -- and they try to do something and then they page fault in knowledge. Basically, they get stuck on something and they either post to a discussion group, or they type their question into Google.

And those are the two things we want to serve basically is the posting to the discussion group and typing things into Google. Our longer term goal, if we’re successful, is that you're trying to figure out how to do something in Python like how to merge two arrays in Python and you go to Google and you type "merge two arrays python" and submit that, and our goal is to be the number one hit that comes up with a really good edited answer to that question that some individual has contributed and maybe other individuals have edited.

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So then you go search on the Internet for "Mac remote desktop connection beta expired" and you get all kinds of discussions; people discussing what to do and how to work around this problem, and "how stupid is Microsoft that they can't solve this problem." What's interesting is that within five days Microsoft had indeed released a new version of it with the expiration removed. So, it is still the beta because they’re still late but it’s not actually telling you that it’s expired anymore.

So that's fine, but here's the point: in the mean time, all those previous blog articles about this thing being removed are still the results you're getting from Google. And so the number one result from Google doesn’t know about the new thing – the fix. In other words, there is something that happens when something is broken and then gets fixed. The brokenness gets into Google and gets page ranked and that tends to sort of dominate the results for a long time because it’s got the earliest dates on it and a lot of the times you're trying to solve something and you find a discussion on the Internet that says "the solution to this problem is there is no solution and you are borked" and you can't do anything about it. And that's wrong, that's no longer correct, you're not looking at the correct information anymore.

One of our goals is to have a place where if somebody posts a wrong answer or they post an answer that used to be right but it becomes wrong that there is a way to remove that and to get that out of the site and to get the new right answer at the top of the page.

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Podcast 4, May 2008

https://stackoverflow.fogbugz.com/default.asp?W781

So what are we actually going to bring to the table that actually makes us better, or at least different, than these other programming communities? And I think one of the things we have going for us - and it sounds kinda obvious - is when we have pretty large audiences that we're gonna say, "Hey take a look at this thing we're doing." Right, so... you know, it's kind of like when Nine Inch Nails did digital music distribution, and when Radiohead did digital music distribution, all the commentators, when they talked about that, said, "Yeah, that's no problem, you can do exactly what they did if you have a band. Just one: be Radiohead, right, two: put digital music online." So, we've built up...

... Yes, yes, so we're hoping that having large audiences that we're involving in this process, through this podcast and through the blog and so forth, is one of the reasons that it's going to be different...

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Spolsky: So that was the question, I guess, that everybody keeps asking, "why another one, and how are you going to hit that so called critical mass?"

Atwood: Right, well, first a bit of terminology. So, it's not exactly a forum. I mean, when I thought about this and Joel and I were initially talking about this, I framed my mind in a way that said, "OK, this is a forum that we're building." But the more we looked at it, it's not really a forum. It's more focused than that. Cause forums have a problem, and I've discussed this on previous podcasts, where you can talk about anything, right? And that ends up sort of, you end up chasing your tail in some way. When you can discuss anything, you end up discussing nothing. So, there's a very laser-tight focus on question/answer that I think sets us apart from forums right out of the gate. And then also, and I don't think we've actually discussed this publicly, but there's going to be a Wiki-like aspect to the pages as well. So the questions won't, hopefully won't go totally stale over time. Because once you get enough trust in the system, you'll actually be able to update the questions, point people to different areas as questions get old, and so on. So those are my first two observations out of the gate. What would you say, Joel?

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See also this "Google Tech Talk" by Joel Spolsky in April 2009 when he talks in detail about the design decisions they made with StackOverflow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWHfY_lvKIQ - again they knew exactly what they were trying to do

Re: Kinda a Big Announcement

#47
post #13

> almost anyone I talk to is too young to imagine The Days Before Stack Overflow, when the bookstore had an entire wall of Java and the way you picked a Rich Text Editor was going to Barnes and Noble and browsing through printed books for an hour, in the Rich Text Editor Component shelf. I remember the "Days Before Stack Overflow" and Joel is giving himself a bit too much credit here. Before SO, when I googled a prob…

Most Unix admins will suggest you check the manpages for a utility before Googling what you need. The answer is often on your system, you just don't know where to find it.

Re: Kinda a Big Announcement

#48
post #5
post #3

Is it just me or is the intro relating to COM a bit off the mark?

It resonated for me because 10 years ago I worked on a COM project (browser extension that had to support IE) and the total lack of information for that "pre-internet" technology meant I had to rely on very hard to find books. There was one book in particular that without it, the project would have failed. And that's what everything used to be like (well, more like before Internet, not necessarily before Stack Overfl…

Having stopped writing COM components in the early 2000s, back then there were very good resources at Microsoft's site (MSDN) as well as within the Visual Studio help. It's interesting to hear it got worse just ten years later but kind of doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't upkeep that kind of documentation.

Re: Kinda a Big Announcement

#49
post #13

> almost anyone I talk to is too young to imagine The Days Before Stack Overflow, when the bookstore had an entire wall of Java and the way you picked a Rich Text Editor was going to Barnes and Noble and browsing through printed books for an hour, in the Rich Text Editor Component shelf. I remember the "Days Before Stack Overflow" and Joel is giving himself a bit too much credit here. Before SO, when I googled a prob…

I think you're onto something. I remember myself, as a young developer and a fresh university student mostly reading programming forums or browsing newsgroups. Even more so official documentation for a programming language or a library.

Only know, having 10+ years of experience behind me, I find myself stumbling upon SO because I know exactly what I'm looking for. In other words, my path to finding the answer is shorter. So it's just a time saver.

I find issues on Github (for open source software) to be frequently of a similar value to me.

Re: Kinda a Big Announcement

#50

Stack Overflow destroyed a lot of its social capital and pissed off its own community in the wake of the Monica Cellio affair a little under 2 years ago. (This one was touched off by the Judaism Stack Exchange moderators asking questions about pronoun policy, but ended up with basically every community involved up in arms, including many in their LGBTQ+ community.) One hopes the new owners will do a better job of man…

Stack Overflow doesn't run on social capital, it runs on providing ads to people who need to find answers to their incredibly specific problem.
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