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Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

puri.sm

41–50 of 148 posts

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#41

This is really cool, but it's $2,000. The problem is the specs don't quite justify a $2,000 price tag. The iPhone 12 Pro Max is $1,099 for 256Gb model. The Librem 5 has 32Gb built in. Granted you can expand storage on the Librem 5, but that's added cost on top of the $2,000. There are other specs to compare, but storage is an easy target. I think the project is awesome, and I'd be very inclined to purchase one, but I…

> The iPhone 12 Pro Max is $1,099

Is it made in the US?

If not, you should compare it with the other Librem model.

I am interested in Librem 5 phones, precisely because they are not iOS or Android. No need to deal with their rules.

I use my phone very little - so I can't say I care about the screen quality or performance.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#42

> Making a convergent operating system that is not Android nor iO "convergent"?

In this case, that means that it converges with desktop software. From what I can tell, GTK and QT have both been shifting their focus to touch-based, scalable UIs. The result is native code that feels just as good with a mouse as it does on a touchscreen.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#43
post #4

I applaud this accomplishment. I think there will be a push to manufacture more semiconductor-intensive products in the US over the next several years as tensions with China continue to heat up and Taiwan is left as a single point of failure. I know progress is already being made with TSMC building new fabs in the US. I will note that Purism do not say what their production capacity is, and that it would probably be…

To your point on production capacity: This reminds me of pushback in the early days of Tesla. Sure they can build 1,000, but can they build 10,000. Now we’re at “sure they can build 500,000, but can they build 5M.” I think the answers “yes”, if the demand is there. And I agree with you that industrial policy could help jumpstart that demand.

> I think the answers “yes”, if the demand is there.

It's not a question of demand. A negligible number of customers care where their product is manufactured. They care only about price, which is why manufacturing moved overseas in the first place.

What is needed to manufacture phones in the West is protectionism and mercantilism. Our governments would have to subsidize domestically manufactured products, require the use of domestic products for various industries, and tariff those manufactured in countries with lower labor standards and incompatible civil rights.

Unfortunately such policies lead to higher costs for consumers and lower economic growth. It's politically unpopular for the same reason action on climate change is unpopular: it makes everything more expensive. It's no wonder that virtually all western politicians support neoliberal globalism. Goods are cheap, even if it means some of us lost our jobs in the process.

Worse, these policies also tend to lead to war. One of the big reasons we've had relative peace between world powers for the last 75 years is that our economies have become closely intertwined, so no politician or corporation can stomach the economic costs of war. If global trade starts to break down we'll head directly into World War 3.

Personally I think we should embrace protectionism anyway despite the cost and risk. I'd go so far as ripping up NAFTA. American labor standards are so shit that Canadian companies can barely compete, and it's holding us back from progressive policies like a 4-day work week. Ontario can't even mandate paid sick days! I'd rather we have a well-paid labor force than cheap groceries and electronics. Unfortunately no politician agrees with me.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm missing it, but it doesn't seem obvious if the parts they're using were also manufactured in the US? Which, if they're not, makes sourcing them still an issue if global supply chains were to break down for example.

https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa/ Scroll a little bit down and you'll see the country of origin for the parts. Most are of US origin.

Am I missing something or does that not say where the SoC/processor is made? TFA does not seem to say where the NXP CPU is made either. Or is that categorized under the "Electronics" category?

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your point on production capacity: This reminds me of pushback in the early days of Tesla. Sure they can build 1,000, but can they build 10,000. Now we’re at “sure they can build 500,000, but can they build 5M.” I think the answers “yes”, if the demand is there. And I agree with you that industrial policy could help jumpstart that demand.

> I think the answers “yes”, if the demand is there. It's not a question of demand. A negligible number of customers care where their product is manufactured. They care only about price, which is why manufacturing moved overseas in the first place. What is needed to manufacture phones in the West is protectionism and mercantilism. Our governments would have to subsidize domestically manufactured products, require the…

> It's politically unpopular for the same reason action on climate change is unpopular: it makes everything more expensive.

You've got this backwards. Both taking action on climate change and buying American are popular [1][2]. Furthermore I don't know of much evidence that suggests taking action on climate change will raise prices. But you are right about protectionism in that way. That's the biggest problem here.

In the abstract I see no reason that global trade should breakdown if a significant majority of people in the world can agree about labor standards, human rights standards, etc. In the specific, I believe this was one of the major original purposes of the UN, though unfortunately the world we live in remains one in which the abuses of great powers go unchecked because the cost of nuclear war is too high.

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2020/06/23/two-thirds-of...

[2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-economy-madeinusa-pol...

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#46
post #4

I applaud this accomplishment. I think there will be a push to manufacture more semiconductor-intensive products in the US over the next several years as tensions with China continue to heat up and Taiwan is left as a single point of failure. I know progress is already being made with TSMC building new fabs in the US. I will note that Purism do not say what their production capacity is, and that it would probably be…

> I’m not surprised that manufacturing thousands of extremely expensive phones in the US is possible. I would be a lot more surprised if they had managed to manufacture millions of reasonably priced phones in the US.

I'm pretty naive on the subject, but in this case why would cost of local labor affect which product is manufactured at any given plant?

Lets say employees A and B are payed $50 and $20 respectively for each product they manufacture. If employee A manufactures product X, which is sold for $100, and employee B manufactures product Y, which is sold for $50, the company makes a net profit of $80 ($150 revenue - $70 manufacturing costs). If employee A makes product Y instead and employee B makes product X, the net profit is still $80. Is there something I'm failing to take into account here?

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your point on production capacity: This reminds me of pushback in the early days of Tesla. Sure they can build 1,000, but can they build 10,000. Now we’re at “sure they can build 500,000, but can they build 5M.” I think the answers “yes”, if the demand is there. And I agree with you that industrial policy could help jumpstart that demand.

> I think the answers “yes”, if the demand is there. It's not a question of demand. A negligible number of customers care where their product is manufactured. They care only about price, which is why manufacturing moved overseas in the first place. What is needed to manufacture phones in the West is protectionism and mercantilism. Our governments would have to subsidize domestically manufactured products, require the…

> It's not a question of demand. A negligible number of customers care where their product is manufactured. They care only about price, which is why manufacturing moved overseas in the first place.

Your first paragraph contradicts itself. Not enough customers demanding their product be made in USA is the very definition of a demand problem.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#48
post #14
post #5

$800 (down from $900) for the Librem 5; $2000 for the Librem 5 USA edition. (Edit: I'm leaving this paragraph here as it attracted comments that would no longer make sense if I edited/removed, but it was a result of a flawed premise [bad math in my head]) That seems a significant premium over the actual cost differential, but they self-admit "this is for customers who have hard requirements on sourcing" rather than "…

Another way to look at it is "this is what it costs to ALSO make something in the US" you aren't just paying to the difference in labor, you are paying for the difference in requirement, documentation, redundancy, small market segment, etc. It's like bolts for aircraft. I can buy the bolt for a couple cents at my local Ace. But to buy the certified one costs 10x+ because of the work involved in getting it certified.

I find binning fascinating when this topic comes up. You start with a pile of 1 cent parts with a 10% tolerance, go through it and measure each and every one, and you magically end up with bins of 1% tolerance parts that now cost a dollar. The parts didn't change at all! And yet merely the fact that they are sorted gives them so much more value.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#49
post #5

$800 (down from $900) for the Librem 5; $2000 for the Librem 5 USA edition. (Edit: I'm leaving this paragraph here as it attracted comments that would no longer make sense if I edited/removed, but it was a result of a flawed premise [bad math in my head]) That seems a significant premium over the actual cost differential, but they self-admit "this is for customers who have hard requirements on sourcing" rather than "…

This multiplier (800x2.5) seems much lower than I'd expect. For prototype quantities (<100), I have consistently seen a multiplier of 8 or so, for the exact same spec (and verified within-spec after receiving the parts).

It’s so cheap it angers me.

Given the ultra-integrated supply chain over in China for high-tech parts & the comparatively low economies of scale here, this is almost a worst-case scenario - and the multiplier is 2.5? Surely that isn’t worth all of the deleterious consequences outsourcing has wrought.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#50
It seems nice but I don't think it matters at this point to wave the nationalist flag when it's only a half-measure forgetting the 500 kg gorilla in the room. Where are nearly all the closed-source designs, manufacturing, and firmwares for the chips made? And, absolutely no chances of backdoors there, right?
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