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Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

dolphin-emu.org

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Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#41

Post by sneak »

wffurr wrote: post #38
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Write XOR Execute restriction discussed in the article is a security feature, and it’s greatly beneficial from a security standpoint. > Until I can run a proper version of Firefox on iPad FireFox for iOS works just fine. The Gecko vs WebKit difference doesn’t really matter in practice. If you want general purpose computing, just get a Mac. You can run Firefox and any other program you’d like. It would be great if…

There is an opt-in developer mode on iOS. You can compile and install any software you want on your own iPad; no paid Apple developer account needed. There’s even a way to get W^X memory regions on iOS by abusing ptrace: https://saagarjha.com/blog/2020/02/23/jailed-just-in-time-co... It can’t be submitted to the App Store or deployed with TestFlight, but you can build and install an app using that hack just fine on y…

> There is an opt-in developer mode on iOS. You can compile and install any software you want on your own iPad; no paid Apple developer account needed.

However, an Apple ID is needed, which requires an email and working phone number to get, along with additional EULA/terms acceptance. It's not really a mode, but an additional network service with its own terms and conditions.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#42

Post by philistine »

jeroenhd wrote: post #24

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

It’s undeniable that a whole class of ARM software was prevented from even being conceived because it has to pass the App Store’s Byzantine set of rules.

On the other hand, I see so many software developers vehemently refuse to notarize their Mac versions. Notarization is far less egregious and it pains me to see so many straight up refuse to even consider it as an alternative to the iron grip of the App Store.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#43

Post by fartcannon »

jeroenhd wrote: post #24

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

It's even worse when you consider the cost to humanity. They pay the brightest minds they can find to build walled gardens around knowledge.

This is the same reason I don't use Microsoft or Google's stuff unless I have to. Knowledge wants to be free.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#44

Post by fooqux »

threeseed wrote: post #32
jeroenhd wrote: post #24

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

Apple’s blanket ban on interpreted code is not arbitrary. It is there to prevent apps circumventing the review process and security model ie. apps pretending to do X during the review process and then doing Y when in use or obfuscating their use of private APIs. Now you can argue these restrictions are unreasonable but many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers.

> many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers

And many of us do. I would never buy a locked-down piece of hardware like that. But I don't think it matters either way what either side wants, because it's what Apple wants that matters. They want to keep their walled garden's walls air tight, and there are apparently enough people that are OK living in that garden that it works.

I'm positive that they have done the calculus that they'll make more money in the long/short term by behaving this way. Google did a similar calculus, with a different set of values (if not an entirely different set of variables altogether) and came up with a different answer. Although it's interesting to see how their position has shifted over the years to be a bit more like Apple in some regards. Regardless, the point is they don't care what you want once they've gotten to the point of getting your money. Past that, they only care about maximizing their profit.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#45

Post by alisonkisk »

nojito wrote: post #30
jeroenhd wrote: post #24

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

Apple doesn't sell hardware/software. They sell experiences. It's not in their interest to sell/provide and support an experience they didn't make. Their success shows that experiences are all that really matter despite what the vocal HN userbase routinely shares.

So much for diversity and inclusion.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#46

Post by easton »

wffurr wrote: post #38
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Write XOR Execute restriction discussed in the article is a security feature, and it’s greatly beneficial from a security standpoint. > Until I can run a proper version of Firefox on iPad FireFox for iOS works just fine. The Gecko vs WebKit difference doesn’t really matter in practice. If you want general purpose computing, just get a Mac. You can run Firefox and any other program you’d like. It would be great if…

There is an opt-in developer mode on iOS. You can compile and install any software you want on your own iPad; no paid Apple developer account needed. There’s even a way to get W^X memory regions on iOS by abusing ptrace: https://saagarjha.com/blog/2020/02/23/jailed-just-in-time-co... It can’t be submitted to the App Store or deployed with TestFlight, but you can build and install an app using that hack just fine on y…

From the link: "Preliminary testing on iOS 14 seems to indicate that Apple has changed the kernel so that this trick no longer works."

This is why the iPad needs a way to disable SIP (and the additional security features) just like the Mac. I could give a heck about the iPhone, to be honest, there's maybe one time in my life being able to JIT Python or whatever would've been useful on my phone. But they advertise the iPad as a computer, and yet their software restrictions make it a portable TV.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#47

Post by api »

threeseed wrote: post #32
jeroenhd wrote: post #24

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

Apple’s blanket ban on interpreted code is not arbitrary. It is there to prevent apps circumventing the review process and security model ie. apps pretending to do X during the review process and then doing Y when in use or obfuscating their use of private APIs. Now you can argue these restrictions are unreasonable but many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers.

> many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers.

This nails it. I want full control and the ability to run anything on my computer. I want my phone to "just work" and I never want to fuck with it or worry about what's on it. They are different devices with different roles.

What I do wish for is open ARM hardware with similar performance. I am totally certain that it is coming now that Apple has demonstrated just what is possible. Ampere, Samsung, Marvell, etc. are surely working on high performance designs now if they weren't already.

There is nothing magic about what Apple did with the M1. They built a really high performance ARM core by applying a lot of the same things that have been done for high performance in the X86 world but without the X86 dead elephant strapped to their back. The M1 can be duplicated if not exceeded.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#48

Post by jtdev »

jeroenhd wrote: post #24

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

I quite appreciate Apple’s software and general corporate decisions. Can you tell me about a better software/hardware vendor out there?

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#49

Post by mcphage »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #33
jeroenhd wrote: post #24

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

Not to be contrary for being contrary, but for me it's pretty much he opposite. I've never had complaints about the software when I was an Apple customer (i.e. from 1992 to 2007) and don't have reasons that there is any particular software problem. But the hardware keeps me from buying macs. It doesn't matter how fast Apple's laptops become, as long as they don't have replaceable batteries, have insufficient RAM, and…

> the obsolescence is too planned in modern Apple hardware

I'm fairly confident Apple hardware has a much longer usable lifespan than competing products—that's why the maintain so much value in the second-hand market.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#50

Post by jtdev »

klelatti wrote: post #34
jeroenhd wrote: post #24

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

You can't separate the hardware from the software and corporate decisions though. The problem you've got here is that the iOS model has worked incredibly well for Apple. Without that you wouldn't have had the investment that has delivered the M1. I'd love to be able to run Firefox on the iPad. I also disagree strongly with some of Apple's decisions - especially on the App Store. However, where we are now is a better…

I run Firefox on iPad with zero problems…
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