Facebook approves alcohol, vaping and gambling ads targeting 13-17 year olds • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook approves alcohol, vaping and gambling ads targeting 13-17 year olds

#41

Post by tdonovic » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:29 AM UTC

adamsvystun wrote: post #24

While it is obviously unethical, is advertising alcohol, vaping and gambling to 13-17 year olds illegal in Australia? Asking because I am not sure if Facebook should be making the shots here on what is legal or illegal to advertise. This is best handled through government.

Yes. It is absolutely illegal. Not sure anywhere where this would be legal. Ie. "TV or radio ads about alcohol cannot target children. They also should not be irresponsible in targeting adults." https://www.acma.gov.au/ads-alcohol-tobacco-or-therapeutic-g...

Edit: changed the example

Re: Facebook approves alcohol, vaping and gambling ads targeting 13-17 year olds

#42

Post by nemo44x » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:30 AM UTC

adamsvystun wrote: post #24

While it is obviously unethical, is advertising alcohol, vaping and gambling to 13-17 year olds illegal in Australia? Asking because I am not sure if Facebook should be making the shots here on what is legal or illegal to advertise. This is best handled through government.

Agreed. Instead of expecting a for-profit company to decide what’s ok we should simply pass laws that makes advertising to people under 18 illegal.

For instance if your social media account says you are less than 18 then it should be illegal to show any ad to you.

This will have the additional benefit of internet communication technology companies having to rethink kids as a profit center.

Re: Facebook approves alcohol, vaping and gambling ads targeting 13-17 year olds

#43

Post by nemo44x » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:31 AM UTC

tdonovic wrote: post #41

adamsvystun wrote: post #24

While it is obviously unethical, is advertising alcohol, vaping and gambling to 13-17 year olds illegal in Australia? Asking because I am not sure if Facebook should be making the shots here on what is legal or illegal to advertise. This is best handled through government.

Yes. It is absolutely illegal. Not sure anywhere where this would be legal. Ie. "TV or radio ads about alcohol cannot target children. They also should not be irresponsible in targeting adults." https://www.acma.gov.au/ads-alcohol-tobacco-or-therapeutic-g... Edit: changed the example

What does that have to do with this?

I do agree though and would go further and make it illegal to show ads to anyone whose profile states they are under 18.

Re: Facebook approves alcohol, vaping and gambling ads targeting 13-17 year olds

#44

Post by ryandrake » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:32 AM UTC

t-writescode wrote: post #35

ryandrake wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure intent is relevant. Does intent matter when the system is so huge and no single person probably understands or directs it? The Purpose Of A System Is What It Does [1]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...

I don't buy that philosophy for short-lived things that haven't had a chance to be acted upon. If a system is in place and continues to do a thing after concerns are brought up, then absolutely, that's an argument that can be made; but, for each new class of mistake a system makes, you can't just say that that's what it was designed to do. It's unfair to the designers, the people in the know, etc. You'll never win pe…

I’d agree if this was the first time bad behavior was uncovered. And it’s not just FB, Silicon Valley seems to have a big problem with big systems that, like Frankenstein, escaped the intent of their creators and fell into this algorithmic evil maximization trap.

Re: Facebook approves alcohol, vaping and gambling ads targeting 13-17 year olds

#45

Post by Erik816 » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:32 AM UTC

adamsvystun wrote: post #24

While it is obviously unethical, is advertising alcohol, vaping and gambling to 13-17 year olds illegal in Australia? Asking because I am not sure if Facebook should be making the shots here on what is legal or illegal to advertise. This is best handled through government.

That is not how ethics and laws interact. The law sets a minimum standard that can be enforced by the government with a penalty. No matter what Facebook does, they are not deciding what is or is not legal.

Ethically, you often have an obligation to do more than the bare legal minimum in order to not be a horrible person.

Re: Facebook approves alcohol, vaping and gambling ads targeting 13-17 year olds

#46

Post by t-writescode » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:32 AM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #38

t-writescode wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The associated comments that are downvoted seem to imply that Facebook intended for this to happen and it wasn't just automation and bureaucracy. Should it be stopped? If it violates the law, absolutely; but, we should recognize it for what it is, not some nefarious, evil plot to harm the young of multiple nations.

>but, we should recognize it for what it is, not some nefarious, evil plot to harm the young of multiple nations. no, it's much worse. Nefarious evil plotters at least need to sleep and eat and eventually they might grow tired of their evil scheming. This is much more miserable, this is simply the invisible hand doing its job and harming the young of multiple nations with a ruthless efficiency and precision that make…

While possibly true, we need to attack it from that angle. If you look at a person and go "you are evil!!" you win no one. If you go to someone and say "I'm seeing some behavior in the system you designed. Was this intended? It's harming people, can we fix it?" you recognize them as human and don't assume harmful intent. Then, the both of you can work to solve the problem. If you go at it the other way, you're attacking _them_ and they'll defend by arguing that it's an emergent behavior of the algorithm and there's no evil intended.

Re: Facebook approves alcohol, vaping and gambling ads targeting 13-17 year olds

#47

Post by scomp » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:32 AM UTC

adamsvystun wrote: post #24

While it is obviously unethical, is advertising alcohol, vaping and gambling to 13-17 year olds illegal in Australia? Asking because I am not sure if Facebook should be making the shots here on what is legal or illegal to advertise. This is best handled through government.

When watching TV during a football (Aussie rules football not soccer) game I see probably 15-20 gambling ads and so would the 0-17 year olds watching. There is also an ad with Matthew McConaughey drinking whiskey, although im not sure if that's during prime time or late hours. Never seen a smoking or vaping ad though.

Re: Facebook approves alcohol, vaping and gambling ads targeting 13-17 year olds

#48

Post by t-writescode » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:34 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #44

t-writescode wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy that philosophy for short-lived things that haven't had a chance to be acted upon. If a system is in place and continues to do a thing after concerns are brought up, then absolutely, that's an argument that can be made; but, for each new class of mistake a system makes, you can't just say that that's what it was designed to do. It's unfair to the designers, the people in the know, etc. You'll never win pe…

I’d agree if this was the first time bad behavior was uncovered. And it’s not just FB, Silicon Valley seems to have a big problem with big systems that, like Frankenstein, escaped the intent of their creators and fell into this algorithmic evil maximization trap.

This is probably the first time it's being reported in a meaningful way that their system enables targeting children for illegal products (presuming vaping is illegal in Australia or the United States for those under 18, which is a separate question, since the only one that passed looked like a vaping product if I understand what I saw in the article)

Re: Facebook approves alcohol, vaping and gambling ads targeting 13-17 year olds

#49

Post by rblatz » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:34 AM UTC

WillDaSilva wrote: post #36

echlebek wrote: post #8

My prediction: there will never be a bottom for facebook.

Companies - specifically large public for-profit companies - are amoral entities solely concerned with maximizing their profits. That Facebook acts seemingly without any morals isn't all that surprising.

This is such a “le late stage capitalism” sentiment that I see posted all the time. It completely misrepresents the responsibility of a public company to operate in its shareholders’ best interest.

Re: Facebook approves alcohol, vaping and gambling ads targeting 13-17 year olds

#50

Post by nemo44x » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:34 AM UTC

WillDaSilva wrote: post #36

echlebek wrote: post #8

My prediction: there will never be a bottom for facebook.

Companies - specifically large public for-profit companies - are amoral entities solely concerned with maximizing their profits. That Facebook acts seemingly without any morals isn't all that surprising.

If I were a shareholder I’d only expect them to operate within the law. Or if the CEO was unsure then hold a shareholder vote (though I’d rather the CEO do their job and not bother us).

In the end it is the democratically elected people’s job to make the laws in the public’s interest.

Ban advertising to minors.