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OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

openastrotech.com

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Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#41

Post by dylan604 »

sink wrote: post #39
dylan604 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, Apple's new M1 based systems now exist on the market. Go make one for me for less than what Apple sells theirs. Should be easy according you since someone else is already doing it. R&D is everything in making of something. Just because someone else made it doesn't mean you get to start exactly where they left off (except in cases of open source where you get their literal plans). Even in wood working or any sh…

I'm not sure why you're so hostile to the GP. Their questions are sincere. Your comparison to the M1 is not appropriate, and you're not actually paying attention to what they wrote. They wrote that they are surprised that R&D makes up the majority of the cost, since this is an open source project. This is a fairly non-obvious feature of open source company business models. They give away the product, and its designs,…

>They wrote that they are surprised that R&D makes up the majority of the cost,

I am as equally as surprised by their surprise about how much R&D is involved in making a "simple" lamp. Someone had to draw the plans so that the metal/plastic could be formed/shaped into the lamp. The parts had to be researched on what could suffice and be safe. Some person didn't just go "i want to make a lamp" and a lamp was created (unless they had Aladdin's lamp first). Research can be as simple as internet searching on parts, but that is still research even if people with PhDs and white lab coats were not involved. The design is still necessary in getting the lamp to a shape that is aesthetically pleasing enough for someone to want to buy it.

>Woodworkers don't market their plans as open source, put them on Github, and accept pull requests.

That's not true in the spirit to the point you are making. There are plenty of websites where wood workers offer their plans/drawings/instructions, and then allow comments where people that followed their plans made modifications. So yes, they don't necessarily use Git and PRs, but the concept is there nonetheless. Same with cooking/baking/etc.

> I'm not sure why you're so hostile to the GP. >Don't create arrogant, sarcastic responses to sincere questions. It devalues this forum, and it's a bad look.

You're reading into the comment an emotion that did not exist when the message was sent. If you read hostility, then that's no what I was trying to infer.

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#42

Post by sink »

dylan604 wrote: post #31
Aachen wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course the R&D makes upt the majority of the price. When is that ever not the case? Like, pretty much every other product that wasn't an entirely new concept in the last few years? Looking around me, I think the thing with the highest R&D price component is probably the chips in computers (desktop, laptop, smartphones), everything else is just mass production and low markup with hardly any research recuperation…

Great, Apple's new M1 based systems now exist on the market. Go make one for me for less than what Apple sells theirs. Should be easy according you since someone else is already doing it. R&D is everything in making of something. Just because someone else made it doesn't mean you get to start exactly where they left off (except in cases of open source where you get their literal plans). Even in wood working or any sh…

I'll add one more thing to my sibling comment. This person is clearly unaware of whether there is ongoing R&D in the realm of hobby astrophotography mounts. They mentioned they're just considering getting into it. They're talking about mass manufactured goods. They were not aware that this is a field of active innovation.

We could have given someone a warm welcome to the hobby by clarifying that politely.

I know when I was getting started, I didn't know what made some things more expensive than others. I didn't know about doublet or triplet refractors, Strehl ratios, Chroma vs ZWO filters, why a MACH2 is such a grail mount over a Optron CEM120. Luckily I had nice, friendly, helpful people to talk to, instead of a wall of arrogance.

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#43

Post by dylan604 »

sink wrote: post #40
dylan604 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you arguing this? Are you really arguing the price of the unit because it's made from $2 worth of plastic, so why the mark up? Why does a car cost so much when there's clearly not $30k worth of parts in it. Why does a house cost $500k when there's only $70k of material. Trolls have to eat too I guess. From your continued asking of the "why" question, it makes me wonder if you've ever tried to build a DIY anyt…

I don't think this person is trying to argue this. They're asking a sincere question about a non-intuitive aspect of open source company business models, and they just keep getting answers that indirectly answer their questions in a veil of condescension and sarcasm. This person is trying to have a discussion, you're trying to have an argument. > Developing something like this involves a lot of the designer's literal…

If you've ever built a PC from 90s era cases, you'll know it is quite easy to get a slight scratch/cut from some edge in that case. If you've ever done enough electrical wiring, you'll have felt the tickle at some point. If you've ever worked with near a stove or anything hot, you'll have touched something you shouldn't have at some point. There are a lot of oops that happen that are not life threatening OSHA violations.

If you've never shed a tear over something so close but ultimately not working, then you must be a robot or souless. It's human nature. You could just as easily add and/or swap tears for curses. Personally, I lean toward the cursing as it's more satisfying.

Also: argue: intransitive verb: To put forth reasons for or against; debate.

The fact that this word immediately sets forth a hostile emotion for you does not mean I am being hostile.

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#45

Post by sink »

dylan604 wrote: post #41
sink wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you're so hostile to the GP. Their questions are sincere. Your comparison to the M1 is not appropriate, and you're not actually paying attention to what they wrote. They wrote that they are surprised that R&D makes up the majority of the cost, since this is an open source project. This is a fairly non-obvious feature of open source company business models. They give away the product, and its designs,…

>They wrote that they are surprised that R&D makes up the majority of the cost, I am as equally as surprised by their surprise about how much R&D is involved in making a "simple" lamp. Someone had to draw the plans so that the metal/plastic could be formed/shaped into the lamp. The parts had to be researched on what could suffice and be safe. Some person didn't just go "i want to make a lamp" and a lamp was created (…

> I am as equally as surprised by their surprise about how much R&D is involved in making a "simple" lamp.

I think your surprise is justified, especially since you've been in this world for a while. But I think there is an apparent (but not real) contradiction between offering designs for free so people can go and build something themselves, and then charging money for R&D. This is what is meant by the term trade secret.

re: Woodworkers and co -- sometimes. Room & Board doesn't share their designs. Tartine Manufactory probably has a cookbook.

> You're reading into the comment an emotion that did not exist when the message was sent. If you read hostility, then that's no what I was trying to infer.

I'm genuinely really happy that this is not the intent. Challenging phrases and Socratic questioning can really come off as hostile.

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#46

Post by dylan604 »

sink wrote: post #45
dylan604 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They wrote that they are surprised that R&D makes up the majority of the cost, I am as equally as surprised by their surprise about how much R&D is involved in making a "simple" lamp. Someone had to draw the plans so that the metal/plastic could be formed/shaped into the lamp. The parts had to be researched on what could suffice and be safe. Some person didn't just go "i want to make a lamp" and a lamp was created (…

> I am as equally as surprised by their surprise about how much R&D is involved in making a "simple" lamp. I think your surprise is justified, especially since you've been in this world for a while. But I think there is an apparent (but not real) contradiction between offering designs for free so people can go and build something themselves, and then charging money for R&D. This is what is meant by the term trade sec…

>Challenging phrases and Socratic questioning can really come off as hostile.

I think this is an entire new thread that could be expanded upon. This is how I was taught. Never given the answer directly, but by being asked another question designed to create further thought on how to answer the orginal question. If being offered a way for more critical thinking is considered hostile, then I weep for future generations.

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#47

Post by dylan604 »

sink wrote: post #42
dylan604 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, Apple's new M1 based systems now exist on the market. Go make one for me for less than what Apple sells theirs. Should be easy according you since someone else is already doing it. R&D is everything in making of something. Just because someone else made it doesn't mean you get to start exactly where they left off (except in cases of open source where you get their literal plans). Even in wood working or any sh…

I'll add one more thing to my sibling comment. This person is clearly unaware of whether there is ongoing R&D in the realm of hobby astrophotography mounts. They mentioned they're just considering getting into it. They're talking about mass manufactured goods. They were not aware that this is a field of active innovation. We could have given someone a warm welcome to the hobby by clarifying that politely. I know when…

>We could have given someone a warm welcome to the hobby by clarifying that politely.

If this was Cloudy Skies or some similar site dedicated to the hobby subject matter, then sure, let's hold someone's hand while they decide to make expensive decisions.

HN is not that. It is, as the name applies, a place where tinkerers in any hobby gather. As someone that hacks/tinkers/plays/circumvents/etc, it is clear that research is step 1, 2 & 3.

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#48

Post by sink »

dylan604 wrote: post #43
sink wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this person is trying to argue this. They're asking a sincere question about a non-intuitive aspect of open source company business models, and they just keep getting answers that indirectly answer their questions in a veil of condescension and sarcasm. This person is trying to have a discussion, you're trying to have an argument. > Developing something like this involves a lot of the designer's literal…

If you've ever built a PC from 90s era cases, you'll know it is quite easy to get a slight scratch/cut from some edge in that case. If you've ever done enough electrical wiring, you'll have felt the tickle at some point. If you've ever worked with near a stove or anything hot, you'll have touched something you shouldn't have at some point. There are a lot of oops that happen that are not life threatening OSHA violati…

re Argument definition: I don't think this person is trying to debate you. That's sort of the core of my point. You're giving a really forceful reaction to someone I perceive to be asking clarifying questions. But, since you are perceiving their messages with a different tone, and I'm perceiving your messages with a different tone, and we're never going to find any ground truth, who's to say who is correct?

And if people regularly bleed and cry at my workplace then I think it's reasonable to call that a toxic environment.

Since definitions of terms and semantics are now a part of this Internet conversation, I think we're done here. You can reply once more and have the last word, if you like. :)

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#49

Post by elteto »

sink wrote: post #38
elteto wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you find $200 expensive for a piece of astrophotography gear you are in for a shock when you research actual prices! For example, the EQ6R Pro mount is a very popular and decent goto mount and it will set you back $1600. You will struggle to find any decent mounts for less than $1000. $200 is EXTREMELY cheap.

I think in general your point is correct. However, this is not a fair comparison. In astrophotography, a primary consideration for the price point of a mount is its instrument weight capacity. The EQ6-R has a weight capacity of 44 lbs. This astrotracker has a capacity of 5.5lbs. The difference is, well, massive. The EQ6-R also has other features, like a built-in polar scope and a periodic error correction. Mounts are…

I 100% agree with your points. A more apt comparison could have been against the SkyGuider Pro (or the SkyTracker), which is $400 for double the payload capacity. So, in a sense, this mount is priced very well.

My original point was more along the lines of "if you think $200 for a mount is expensive in astrophotography then you will be very disappointed when you start learning about the hobby". I see this high ($$$) barrier of entry as a very real impediment to getting started in the hobby. But like you said, you don't need to go all in when starting, a decent DSLR and a tracking mount will provide countless hours of fun (and frustration!).

Re: OpenAstroTracker: 3D printed, open source star tracker

#50

Post by KMnO4 »

delgaudm wrote: post #21

Not nearly to the level of this project, but if you want to dabble with taking long exposures of the sky: Consider the simple "barn door tracker"[0][1][2] to try astrophotography. After all was said and done my sky was too polluted for anything worthwhile, but the simplicity of it still intrigues me, and may be an intermediate step before going all in on the OAT. [0] https://garyseronik.com/build-a-hinge-tracker-for-…

Many years ago I read an article where someone used a regular DSLR and a barn door tracker to detect exoplanets (ie planets that orbit a different star). This is what got me into astrophotography.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/geek-life/hands-on/diy-exoplanet-d...

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