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Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part III

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Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part III

#41
post #37

Unrelated - All this work is done by an 18 year old. Absolutely incredible. Some people are simply built differently and admittedly, it makes me jealous.

Wow, hopefully they are getting enough in donations/sponsorship to compensate them for their extraordinary efforts. It’s very easy to see these skills getting snapped up for a multiple 6 figure salary in the near future…

[deleted]

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part III

#42
post #27

I'm not really a developer so maybe I'm just not understanding something, but why in the world isn't Apple making it easier for people to optimize for the M1? I would think it's in their best interest to help developers make the best software possible, by sharing information about how to leverage the architecture. It's bizarre to me that the best sources of information are posts like this.

Believe it or not, you're just purchasing rare earth materials packed very tightly into a nice box when you buy a Mac or an iPhone. The operating system is paid for on the backend by developers giving up 30% of revenue that goes through the App Store. The M1 is turning the Mac into an iPhone in exchange for an extremely fast processor and insane battery life, so they're not interested in helping you bypass the technical challenges of running other operating systems on their hardware (much like how they don't help you jailbreak iOS in order to help you install Cydia or third-party app stores).

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part III

#43
post #27

I'm not really a developer so maybe I'm just not understanding something, but why in the world isn't Apple making it easier for people to optimize for the M1? I would think it's in their best interest to help developers make the best software possible, by sharing information about how to leverage the architecture. It's bizarre to me that the best sources of information are posts like this.

Believe it or not, you're just purchasing rare earth materials packed very tightly into a nice box when you buy a Mac or an iPhone. The operating system is paid for on the backend by developers giving up 30% of revenue that goes through the App Store. The M1 is turning the Mac into an iPhone in exchange for an extremely fast processor and insane battery life, so they're not interested in helping you bypass the techni…

You are drawing a false equivalency between the Mac and iPhones. iOS devices are deliberately locked so that running your own low-level software on them is not supposed to be possible, and requires breaking Apple's security. If they make no mistakes, doing it is completely impractical (the cost of an attack outside their attack model is greater than the price of the device).

macOS devices are not, and Apple invested significant development effort into allowing third-party kernels on M1 Macs. The situation is very different. They are not actively supporting the development of third-party OSes, but they are actively supporting their existence. They built an entire boot policy system to allow not just this, but insecure/non-Apple-signed OSes to coexist and dual-boot on the same device next to a full-secure blessed macOS with all of their DRM stuff enabled, which is something not even open Android devices do.

You can triple-boot a macOS capable of running iOS apps (only possible with secureboot enabled), a macOS running unsigned kernel modules or even your own XNU kernel build, and Linux on the same M1 Mac.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part III

#45
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll agree with you when they'll support Vulkan properly. Until then I see them as a hostile entity to common GPU APIs adoption.

You're talking about macOS. We're talking about AGX2. If you want to complain about Apple's API support in macOS, a discussion about AGX2 support for Linux is not the right venue. I am, quite honestly, getting very tired of all the off-topic gratuitous Apple bashing in articles about our Linux porting project.

Shmerl pops up on every thread mentioning Vulkan/Apple spouting conspiracy theory nonsense that every design decision is some kind of evil plan to screw over open standards. Ignore him.

Keep up the great work, plenty of people really appreciate it.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part III

#46
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll agree with you when they'll support Vulkan properly. Until then I see them as a hostile entity to common GPU APIs adoption.

You're talking about macOS. We're talking about AGX2. If you want to complain about Apple's API support in macOS, a discussion about AGX2 support for Linux is not the right venue. I am, quite honestly, getting very tired of all the off-topic gratuitous Apple bashing in articles about our Linux porting project.

Yes I agree it's tiresome, I wish hacker news had rules against people making bad faith arguments more so than they do now.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part III

#47

Unrelated - All this work is done by an 18 year old. Absolutely incredible. Some people are simply built differently and admittedly, it makes me jealous.

Don’t be jealous, just engage yourself in work that challenges you at that level! There is lots of challenging free software stuff that needs doing with your name on it. Alyssa is just having fun.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part III

#48
post #16
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the advantage of building your hardware and your software under the same roof. You can make optimizations (such as not including hardware that makes OpenGL faster, but doesn't impact Metal nearly as much.) The "standard" here is the Metal API, not the GPU hardware.

I don't think it's an advantage to sabotage the adoption of common API like Vulkan. It holds the progress back and I totally blame Apple for pointless NIH and lack of collaboration here. Apple are doing it out of rather sickening lock-in culture in the company and Metal is far from the only example like that.

The fixed-function hardware that Alyssa assumed existed (vertex attribute fetch, special uniform buffer hardware) doesn't exist on many GPUs outside of mobile. In fact, Vulkan was designed to be a closer match for these GPUs, by making many of the same tradeoffs that Metal did. If they wanted to sabotage Vulkan, choosing the same tradeoffs as it and following the same path as most other GPU vendors doesn't seem like a very effective way to do it.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part III

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe it or not, you're just purchasing rare earth materials packed very tightly into a nice box when you buy a Mac or an iPhone. The operating system is paid for on the backend by developers giving up 30% of revenue that goes through the App Store. The M1 is turning the Mac into an iPhone in exchange for an extremely fast processor and insane battery life, so they're not interested in helping you bypass the techni…

You are drawing a false equivalency between the Mac and iPhones. iOS devices are deliberately locked so that running your own low-level software on them is not supposed to be possible, and requires breaking Apple's security. If they make no mistakes, doing it is completely impractical (the cost of an attack outside their attack model is greater than the price of the device). macOS devices are not, and Apple invested…

This pales in comparison to the rhetoric when OS X came out - you see that rhetoric survive today at opensource.apple.com, it's there, just, not in the spirit of the freedom that was promised.

Re: Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, Part III

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are drawing a false equivalency between the Mac and iPhones. iOS devices are deliberately locked so that running your own low-level software on them is not supposed to be possible, and requires breaking Apple's security. If they make no mistakes, doing it is completely impractical (the cost of an attack outside their attack model is greater than the price of the device). macOS devices are not, and Apple invested…

This pales in comparison to the rhetoric when OS X came out - you see that rhetoric survive today at opensource.apple.com, it's there, just, not in the spirit of the freedom that was promised.

Sure, but Apple didn't promise any openness with the M1, and over-delivered :)
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