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NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

bbc.co.uk

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Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#41

Post by makomk »

weddpros wrote: post #32
Gatsky wrote: post #24

If there is one thing we’ve learned from this pandemic it’s that apps will not save us.

If (western) governments had chosen to prevent the epidemic, apps would have helped, but they decided to let the virus spread, just slowly enough. Also (western) journalists love stories about 3M deaths, surveillance apps or fake news, much more than success stories. So yes, apps had no chance to save lives. Korea or Singapore show they could have, but we didn't let them.

Part of the problem is that the mainstream media - including the BBC - seem to have mislead people about how well contact tracing worked in places like South Korea. For example, they ran an article a few months back about how it was so effective that South Korea could reopen their pubs and nightclubs. In reality, they'd tried doing that multiple times and every time, cases had started going up enough that they had to close them again - but you wouldn't know that from the article. Nor would you have known that the same thing happened that time; the BBC kept on completely ignoring the rise in cases there even as they reported less important stories from South Korea.

Covid still isn't in control in South Korea. (Singapore maybe, but that relied on their society being structured in a way that wouldn't be politically acceptable elsewhere. If you take a look at the infection rate in their worker dorms, and realise those people would be living amongst the rest of the community in equally crowded housing and shopping at the same stores in Western countries - just like they were in Singapore until they were forced into dorms so actual citizens didn't have to look at them - and that those infections weren't even counted as "community cases" there...)

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#42

Post by simion314 »

cameronh90 wrote: post #18
ircshotty wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't speak for Google's case - but Apple certainly goes to great pains to make it clear they don't collect location data on users - it's left on the user's device. Isn't it interesting that it takes an international mega-corporation to take a more realistic and principled approach to user privacy than a democratic government.

Apple definitely have a stronger case here, because as you say, they do more generally go to lengths to protect user privacy. That being said, they do use location-based advertising themselves.

Apple sent users data about what app their run and when they to their servers, and if I remember right the protocol was not secure enough. So either Apple does not care about privacy or they are incompetent not to implement that feature respecting the users privacy.

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#43

Post by [deleted] »

weddpros wrote: post #32
Gatsky wrote: post #24

If there is one thing we’ve learned from this pandemic it’s that apps will not save us.

If (western) governments had chosen to prevent the epidemic, apps would have helped, but they decided to let the virus spread, just slowly enough. Also (western) journalists love stories about 3M deaths, surveillance apps or fake news, much more than success stories. So yes, apps had no chance to save lives. Korea or Singapore show they could have, but we didn't let them.

[deleted]

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#44

Post by dustinmoris »

simion314 wrote: post #39
dustinmoris wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well put! These are the moments which everyone remembers and refers back to when the next troll comes along and claims that Apple must allow third party app stores.

People are not trolls to demand the freedom to do whatever they want with their property and the freedom to pass laws to force Apple to permit that. The argument that if you do not like Apple or Goole use Linux can be reverse and if Apple or Google does not like EU or other market with anti-competitive laws they are very,very free not to do business there. Should I remind the fanboys again that Apple gives China dire…

> People are not trolls to demand the freedom to do whatever they want with their property

But you can do whatever you want as far as it’s possible by the product that you purchased. If you buy a Gameboy you wouldn’t sue Nintendo for not supporting you to play Playstation games on it, unless you’re a troll. Same thing for Apple products. Do with your iPhone what you want, but if you don’t like the Apple software on it then return your device or try to hack it or just buy another product which better meets your needs.

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#45

Post by makomk »

spzb wrote: post #34
mbalyuzi wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it interesting that there seems to be a (wilful?) ignorance on the part of our government as to quite how big and powerful those corporations are. There seems to be a bit of a "We're the government, so they'll have to do what we ask/tell" going on here I suspect. Probably coupled with incompetent IT project management that didn't bother to worry about the terms and conditions they signed up to, because that wa…

> coupled with incompetent IT project management The UK Government have made a pig's ear of pretty much the whole of their Covid response precisely because they refuse to engage with anyone who might actually know what they're doing. Everything's been outsourced at great expense to private companies operating on a wing and a prayer basis. Millions of pounds and many weeks' of time early on in the pandemic was wasted…

Funny you should mention that. Literally the day that the UK rolled out the new app using the Google/Apple solution, the BBC suddenly forgot about the downsides of the old app and decided that its advantages over the new one were real after all. Even found a few experts to back them up, whereas before you'd think only the government considered it to have any advantage.

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#46

Post by woutr_be »

Gatsky wrote: post #24

If there is one thing we’ve learned from this pandemic it’s that apps will not save us.

It does seem to work here in Hong Kong. Two weeks ago someone who went to my gym tested positive, I was instantly notified through the app (as did 500 other members). Within two hours I got tested, and received my negative results the next day.

Anytime someone tests positive, the government notifies everyone who was in the same building in the past two weeks, and testing is mandatory.

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#47

Post by teruakohatu »

sitharus wrote: post #33

That's odd, since the NZ Covid Tracer app definitely has this feature, it's part of the standard process when someone tests positive. As far as I know it only includes the manually scanned codes though, not the bluetooth proximity tracing data. Perhaps the NHS app was trying to gather this?

> the terms and conditions in more detail says that "a contact tracing app may not use location-based APIs... and may not collect any device information to identify the precise location of users".

I also wondered about this. The NZ app doesn't as far as I know log or transmit GPS coordinates. Some organisations have different codes at every door and in each elevator.

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#48

Post by newbie578 »

I won't go into the morality of this particular issue if Apple or Google is right or wrong in this case, but I do think that Apple and Google are slowly but surely pushing their limits...

Even if they are right, no government wants to be beneath a corporation, and have it so publicly displayed how a corporation wields more power than government.

Apple and Google are just asking to be regulated, and contrary to HN sentiment, I cannot wait for that moment. I think I'll open the champagne and make a toast to Tim Cook.

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#49

Post by woutr_be »

sitharus wrote: post #33

That's odd, since the NZ Covid Tracer app definitely has this feature, it's part of the standard process when someone tests positive. As far as I know it only includes the manually scanned codes though, not the bluetooth proximity tracing data. Perhaps the NHS app was trying to gather this?

It works the same in HK, once you test positive, you input your case number, and upload your check in history to some government servers. I assumed this is how every country does it.

Re: NHS Covid-19 app update blocked for breaking Apple and Google's rules

#50

Post by amanzi »

sitharus wrote: post #33

That's odd, since the NZ Covid Tracer app definitely has this feature, it's part of the standard process when someone tests positive. As far as I know it only includes the manually scanned codes though, not the bluetooth proximity tracing data. Perhaps the NHS app was trying to gather this?

Perhaps there's some details missing from the article, because it sounds just like how the NZ app operates. All data stays on your phone unless you choose to share it:

  "The information you choose to record with NZ COVID Tracer is stored on your phone where only you can see it. This includes the QR codes you scan, your manual diary entries, your Bluetooth ‘keys’, and your NHI number."
If you're identified as a potential case, then you can choose whether or not you want to share your history:

  "If you are identified as a confirmed or probable case of COVID-19, it is entirely your choice whether to share your digital diary with the Ministry or upload your Bluetooth keys. You are in control of your data."
More details here:

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/...

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